Agreed. Yet His torah is still truth and lasts forever. Go figure that one out
Jesus greater than the Torah, and greater than the law, as law came thru Moses, but now Grace now thru His Son!
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The Three-Fold Division of the Law
- Thread starter Martin Marprelate
- Start date
Well Martin, if you want to eat poisonous mushrooms or things that will make you sick go ahead. It is food for you afterall. It is funny that Noah knew the difference between clean and unclean isn't it?
Gen 7:2 “Of all the clean beasts take with you seven pairs, a male and his female; and of the beasts that are unclean two, a male and his female;
Gen 7:3 and of birds of the heavens seven pairs, male and female, to keep offspring alive on the face of all the earth.
Have you ever asked yourself why?Gen 7:3 and of birds of the heavens seven pairs, male and female, to keep offspring alive on the face of all the earth.
Do you know that we can do NOTHING to earn or keep eternal life?
Can you lose eternal life? How?
No, what must a sinner go to have eternal life in your understanding?
1Co 6:9 Do you not know that the unrighteous shall not inherit the reign of Elohim? Do not be deceived. Neither those who whore, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,
1Co 6:10 nor thieves, nor greedy of gain, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers shall inherit the reign of Elohim.
The New Covenant is God's Eternal Covenant and rendered man's covenant, an old and obsolete covenant and supersedes it LIKE IT ALWAYS FROM THE BRGINNING, HAS DONE.
The New Covenant cannot <supersede> itself. It, however, fulfilled itself as only indeed itself can fulfil itself. "God gave Christ to the Church as Head, The All in all fulfilling FULLNESS OF GOD."
You forgot to add to that listing those whom Paul stated once did do all of those things, and yet by faith in Jesus were cleansed and made complete and now saved in Him!
Can you know the impossible to know the impossible in the mind of God?
So impossible is it for the chosen and saved to <<lose eternal life>>.
You can always reject the gift. You do so by choosing satans ways of disobedience.
Once saved always saved is heresy
I think what people miss is the covenantal aspect of the Mosaic Law. If the Law (the Mosaic Law, Torah, the Law of Moses) is a covenant then it cannot be divided or taken in part. Deut. 5 tells us that the Mosaic Law is a covenant between not only a specific people (Israel) but to this specific people at a specific time (it was not a covenant between God and their fathers before). So Paul was quite right to condemn Peter for looking back to the Law because it can never be broken.
That said, every aspect of the Law (moral, ceremonial, and civil) represent God’s nature in that covenant for the people to whom that covenant was given until it is fulfilled. The ceremonial laws have been fulfilled in Christ (they were about Jesus, foreshadowing Christ). This alone removes men from under the Mosaic Law and makes the Law obsolete. But we are still left with God’s law, or God’s “moral law” (the basis for the moral commands in the Mosaic covenant. God’s law is eternal because it reflects the image of God in man , that is, what man should be (God is the standard by which men are judged).
My argument here is that the Law (the Mosaic Law) cannot be broken because it is a covenant, but as a covenant it is restricted to those to whom it is given until it is fulfilled. We are not, nor were we ever, under the Mosaic Law. We are commanded to be in Christ (to repent and believe). If we do this then we fulfill God’s law (which means we would also fulfill the Law). It is not enough not to murder, for we must not hate. It is not enough to refrain from adultery, for we must not lust. It is not enough to make offerings to God, for we must love God with all of our heart….and if we love God we obey his commandments.
That said, every aspect of the Law (moral, ceremonial, and civil) represent God’s nature in that covenant for the people to whom that covenant was given until it is fulfilled. The ceremonial laws have been fulfilled in Christ (they were about Jesus, foreshadowing Christ). This alone removes men from under the Mosaic Law and makes the Law obsolete. But we are still left with God’s law, or God’s “moral law” (the basis for the moral commands in the Mosaic covenant. God’s law is eternal because it reflects the image of God in man , that is, what man should be (God is the standard by which men are judged).
My argument here is that the Law (the Mosaic Law) cannot be broken because it is a covenant, but as a covenant it is restricted to those to whom it is given until it is fulfilled. We are not, nor were we ever, under the Mosaic Law. We are commanded to be in Christ (to repent and believe). If we do this then we fulfill God’s law (which means we would also fulfill the Law). It is not enough not to murder, for we must not hate. It is not enough to refrain from adultery, for we must not lust. It is not enough to make offerings to God, for we must love God with all of our heart….and if we love God we obey his commandments.
The covenant wasn't fulfilled, it was broken. That is why a new was made and the need for redemption (buying back) of the bride. The laws are to be put in our minds and hearts which indicates they continue on from the 1st covenant.
I mean, if Israel couldn't quit breaking the first set of laws, why would he take them away and give another? Its like rewarding a bad child. exp: Because you kept refusing to make your bed like I told you, I'll just change my mind and you never have to make your bed again (ridiculous, but thats how the church sees it).
Mat 5:17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Torah or the Prophets.1 I did not come to destroy but to complete. Footnote: 1The Law and the Prophets is a term used for the pre-Messianic Scriptures.
Mat 5:18 “For truly, I say to you, till the heaven and the earth pass away, one jot or one tittle shall by no means pass from the Torah till all be done.
Luk 16:17 “And it is easier for the heaven and the earth to pass away than for one tittle of the Torah to fall.
How often do you make animal sacrifices as commanded in Torah? Or are you a Law breaker? Jesus said that he came to fulfill the Law, and I suspect he was correct in that statement.
Your analogy is a bit off. I do not know of any church that sees it this way.
Military servicemen are subject to Uniform Code of Military Justice (UCMJ is federal law enacted by Congress defining the military justice system). Articles 77 through 134 are punitive. When I was a soldier, had I driven while drunk I would have violated Article 111. Had I been driving in Tennessee that same transgression of military law would be a violation of Tennessee Annotated Code 22-10-401.
Your hypothesis implies that everyone who receives a DUI transgresses UCMJ Article 111. This is an error because non-military personnel who receive a DUI are not violators of Article 111 because they are not governed under that law. Your reply implies that I am saying since they are not guilty of transgressing UCMJ it is perfectly fine for them to drink and drive. This is wrong because they are still guilty of the offense, just not under the authority you would have them to be subject.
The Mosaic Law was given as a covenant to Israel during a specific time in history. It is an error to think that those who recognize the teaching of Scripture about the nature of the Law are advocating lawlessness. God's law was never dependent on Torah. It is the other way around.
Fulfilling the law means to give a proper interpretation of it. Destroying it is to give an improper interpretation. Yeshua clears up any confusion in the very next verse of nothing passing away until all is done (and not all is done yet).
Yes, the mosaic law was only given to Israel. But did you know, the new covenant is only given to Israel also? Please look it up and verify this for yourself (Jer 31, heb 8).
Yhvh's law is torah. It is His will for us. Do you honestly think He wants us to now go kill, steal, and destroy like satan? No! We are to be set-apart from the world and we do this by following His Word.
Paul teaches that this New Covenant is given to "true Israel", the "spiritual descendants" of Abraham who are in the "Seed of Abraham" of Whom Torah testified. Both Paul and John extend this to all believers, of whom Jew and Gentile are no distinction. Do you doubt those truths....perhaps holding only the red letters true Scripture?
(Not accusing, but I have encountered some who teach that Paul hijacked Christianity and the Disciples' writings are not as trustworthy as are the "red letters"; your ideas seem similar).
No, Paul is good, he's just hard to understand as Peter says to their own destruction.
So you would agree the New Covenant is only given to the house of Judah and the House of Israel per the Jer 31 and Heb 8 prophecy?
Paul shows how gentiles can take part in it via adoption/engrafting in Rom 11
I believe we agree on the passages. Jeremiah 31 speaks of God’s compassion on Jacob; their leader will be one of them, and come from them to approach God. It looks to a day when God will make a New Covenant – not like the one He made with their fathers which they broke (although God remained faithful). God will teach them, put His law in them, be their God and they His people. This is the same New Covenant of Hebrews 8. The first is made obsolete, the second a better covenant mediated by Christ Jesus.
I think perhaps Paul is so difficult for some to understand because they forget he was called an apostle to the Gentile. Paul is explaining so often that Gentiles are grafted into spiritual Israel (the “grafting” is an illustration Paul uses of olive trees). More to the point, Paul also teaches that God’s covenant with Abraham looked to Abraham’s Seed (singular) and the children of the Promise are those “in” this Seed (“in Christ”). This is reinforced (by Paul) in noting that the Abrahamic Covenant not only predated Torah but also was not made to Israel. It was made to Abraham and it was made to Abraham before he was even circumcised.
In other words, the Abrahamic Covenant within which Paul finds the identity of the “People of God” or “true/spiritual Israel” was, technically speaking, a covenant of God made to a Gentile man who was not under the Law. In addition, the unconditional promised blessing of the covenant was not directed to Israel or even all of Abraham’s physical descendants. That Seed (again, note Paul’s insistence we are speaking singular here) that will redeem man from the curse (Genesis 3:15) is the promised blessing to “all the families of the earth” (not just one people group).
What you are saying is right with a slight correction to your final paragraph:
Abraham wasn't a gentile, he was the first hebrew. This means he has crossed over from death unto life through covenant. Why was Abraham picked?
Gen_26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.
and
Gen 18:19 “For I have known him, so that he commands his children and his household after him, to guard the way of יהוה, to do righteousness and right-ruling, so that יהוה brings to Aḇraham what He has spoken to him.”
and
Gen 18:19 “For I have known him, so that he commands his children and his household after him, to guard the way of יהוה, to do righteousness and right-ruling, so that יהוה brings to Aḇraham what He has spoken to him.”
The people group that the promises are directed at is indeed Israel (both physical and spiritual as you say). It has defined borders, a defined Elohim (king), and his defined laws, . This makes up the kingdom. All those wanting to be part of this kingdom have to come in and join this group, their king, and his laws.
Obviously you have never asked yourself why.
The 'clean' animals were used for sacrifice. They had to be the very best (eg. Genesis 4:4) because they spoke of the one perfect acceptable sacrifice of the Lord Jesus Christ. But for food, 'As one who is in the Lord Jesus, I am convinced that no food is unclean of itself' (Romans 14:14, NIV). 'Eat everything sold in the meat market without raising issues of conscience' (1 Corinthians 10:25).
In the unlikely event of us dining together, I would treat you as the weaker brother and eat whatever helped your conscience. But the Christian is free to eat whatever he wants after giving thanks to God for it.
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