Baptism for the Dead???

[lanman87]

I just joined this forum and thought I would jump in with an easy question.

My Bible reading this morning was 1st Corinthians 15. I ran across these versus and have know idea what they mean and thought some of you that are more theologically educated may be able to help.

29 Otherwise, what do people mean by being baptized on behalf of the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized on their behalf?

 

[StefanM]

I'm interested in hearing the responses to this one. I've not studied this in a while, so I've forgotten the main views on it. I know we'll have some experts with wisdom to share!

 

[Darrell C]

I just joined this forum and thought I would jump in with an easy question.

My Bible reading this morning was 1st Corinthians 15. I ran across these versus and have know idea what they mean and thought some of you that are more theologically educated may be able to help.

29 Otherwise, what do people mean by being baptized on behalf of the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized on their behalf?

I like your humor already, welcome to the Forum!

While not an expert, I would make a suggestion: the chapter deals with the issue of a rejection of the rising of the dead, a singular point made "Why have faith if it is for nothing (if the dead rise not)?"

Rather than a concept of people undergoing Christian Baptism in the stead of a dead relative (or friend), in view, I believe, is the deeper meaning of Baptism when used in connection with the Person of Jesus Christ, which speaks of identification with Christ and our unity with Him in salvation.


1 Corinthians 15:12-13
King James Version (KJV)

12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?

13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:


His point is simple, if there is no resurrection of the dead, then we must also include Christ's Resurrection, because the two would cancel each other out. But, if you believe that Christ has risen...you have no choice but to embrace the Doctrine of the Resurrection of the Dead.

Now, instead of going through each verse until we get to our key text, I will simply ask one question: what are we before we are Baptized into Christ, which is pictured in Christian (water) Baptism?

Dead.

So I would suggest to you that Paul cuts with two swipes with his statement, showing that people do indeed have faith in the resurrection of the dead, particularly Christ's Resurrection (because people have been and are still being baptized in identification with Christ) and secondly, that he is pointing out the fact that it is "the dead" who are being baptized.

Secondly, and probably more to the point (in regards to the question), we are baptized, not for the "dead" among those who have gone on before us, but for the "Dead" which is central to Paul's point, that is...that Christ was dead, and is risen.

The Resurrection of Christ is central to our very faith. That is why we are Baptized. If they deny the resurrection of the dead, how can they say they believe in the Rising of the Lord?

As to the first point, s it not stated we are "...buried with Him in Baptism to walk in newness of life" when we are baptized?


Romans 6:4
King James Version (KJV)

4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.


So the point seems, to me, to be one in which the question simply asks "How can you deny the resurrection of the dead if you believe in the resurrection of the dead, namely, the Resurrection of the Lord."


God bless.

 

[Yeshua1]

I like your humor already, welcome to the Forum!

While not an expert, I would make a suggestion: the chapter deals with the issue of a rejection of the rising of the dead, a singular point made "Why have faith if it is for nothing (if the dead rise not)?"

Rather than a concept of people undergoing Christian Baptism in the stead of a dead relative (or friend), in view, I believe, is the deeper meaning of Baptism when used in connection with the Person of Jesus Christ, which speaks of identification with Christ and our unity with Him in salvation.


1 Corinthians 15:12-13
King James Version (KJV)

12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?

13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:


His point is simple, if there is no resurrection of the dead, then we must also include Christ's Resurrection, because the two would cancel each other out. But, if you believe that Christ has risen...you have no choice but to embrace the Doctrine of the Resurrection of the Dead.

Now, instead of going through each verse until we get to our key text, I will simply ask one question: what are we before we are Baptized into Christ, which is pictured in Christian (water) Baptism?

Dead.

So I would suggest to you that Paul cuts with two swipes with his statement, showing that people do indeed have faith in the resurrection of the dead, particularly Christ's Resurrection (because people have been are being baptized in identification with Christ) and secondly, that he is pointing out the fact that it is "the dead" who are being baptized.

Secondly, and probably more to the point (in regards to the question), we are baptized, not for the "dead" among those who have gone on before us, but for the "Dead" which is central to Paul's point, that is...that Christ was dead, and is risen.

The Resurrection of Christ is central to our very faith. That is why we are Baptized. If they deny the resurrection of the dead, how can they say they believe in the Rising of the Lord?

As to the first point, s it not stated we are "...buried with Him in Baptism to walk in newness of life" when we are baptized?


Romans 6:4
King James Version (KJV)

4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.


So the point seems, to me, to be one in which the question simply asks "How can you deny the resurrection of the dead if you believe in the resurrection of the dead, namely, the Resurrection of the Lord."


God bless.

I think that you nailed it pretty much, as it is not as the Mormons see this, but do think Paul addressing why evcen worry about it if there is no resurrection?

 

[Vizio]

I just joined this forum and thought I would jump in with an easy question.

My Bible reading this morning was 1st Corinthians 15. I ran across these versus and have know idea what they mean and thought some of you that are more theologically educated may be able to help.

29 Otherwise, what do people mean by being baptized on behalf of the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized on their behalf?

it's an "argumentum ad absurdum"

Follow the train of thought in the passage. He's arguing for the resurrection -- pointing out that if there is no resurrection in general, then Christ didn't rise,and our faith is in vain. But he pulls out a pagan practice to make his point -- if there is no resurrection at all....why do the pagans do it. EVEN they know there is a resurrection, and they try to prepare for it in their way, without Christ.

Having said that, nowhere are we instructed to practice it.

 

[Charles Blair]

I just joined this forum and thought I would jump in with an easy question.

My Bible reading this morning was 1st Corinthians 15. I ran across these versus and have know idea what they mean and thought some of you that are more theologically educated may be able to help.

29 Otherwise, what do people mean by being baptized on behalf of the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized on their behalf?

Immersion pictures death, burial, and resurrection. We are baptized looking back at our death to sin and rising to walk in new life (Ro. 6:4),and looking forward to our physical death, burial, and final resurrection.

 

[Darrell C]

it's an "argumentum ad absurdum"

Follow the train of thought in the passage. He's arguing for the resurrection -- pointing out that if there is no resurrection in general, then Christ didn't rise,and our faith is in vain. But he pulls out a pagan practice to make his point -- if there is no resurrection at all....why do the pagans do it. EVEN they know there is a resurrection, and they try to prepare for it in their way, without Christ.

Having said that, nowhere are we instructed to practice it.

I have a little trouble seeing Paul essentially saying "The pagans do it, so should you."

He spends quite a bit of time focusing on the Resurrection of Christ, so I would think it a little foreign (to the train of thought) to interject pagan belief into his question.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

Immersion pictures death, burial, and resurrection. We are baptized looking back at our death to sin and rising to walk in new life (Ro. 6:4),and looking forward to our physical death, burial, and final resurrection.

I prefer to hold to the hope of Paul for the Rapture to occur before I die physically:


2 Corinthians 5
King James Version (KJV)

1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:

3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.

4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.


He does not want to be unclothed (naked, without the physical body), but receive that "house" not made with hands.


God bless.

 

[John of Wood Green]

It is possible that when a believer died before he could be baptized, some in the church might have decided to be baptized on his behalf, not because it would do anything for him, but for church order. Whilst I would not adopt the practice, to me as a Baptist, being baptized for an unbaptized child of a believer when you have reason to believe he was converted would be preferable to baptizing him as an infant lest he die without being baptized.

 

[Charles Blair]

I prefer to hold to the hope of Paul for the Rapture to occur before I die physically:

Understood, but Paul also said (I Ths. 4:16-17), "The dead in Christ shall rise first; then we who are alive....
Some of each when He calls.


2 Corinthians 5
King James Version (KJV)

1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:

3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.

4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.


He does not want to be unclothed (naked, without the physical body), but receive that "house" not made with hands.


God bless.

 

[TCassidy]

Paul begins talking about the resurrection in verse 20, and spends the next 8 verses making it very plain that not only Christ rose from the dead, but that the Apostles and Prophets will also rise physically on that coming resurrection day.

In verses 29 through 34 Paul asks some questions concerning Christian practice (not doctrine).

If Christ, the Apostles, and the Prophets, are all dead, why be baptized on the basis of their teaching, for their teaching was obviously wrong.

Baptism pictures the death, burial, and RESURRECTION. If there is no resurrection, baptism does not make any sense, and to be baptized because a bunch of dead guys said so is just plain silly.

Paul then says the same thing about preaching and missions work. If all the guys that said to do that are dead forever, why take orders from a bunch of dead guys?

Why put my life in danger for nothing? Why fight with beasts (and men!) if the Gospel of the Resurrection (see verse 4) is not true.

He then says in verse 34, "Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame."

Because some of these Corinthian believers did not believe in the resurrection, they were not keeping the great commission, and many of their friends and neighbors had not heard the Gospel from them. Paul says "Shame on you and your unbelief."

 

[Vizio]

I have a little trouble seeing Paul essentially saying "The pagans do it, so should you."

He spends quite a bit of time focusing on the Resurrection of Christ, so I would think it a little foreign (to the train of thought) to interject pagan belief into his question.


God bless.

I didn't say that. He said "EVEN the pagans realize there is a resurrection". That's different. He was saying that the resurrection is so much of a given..it's just a fact...that EVEN the pagans believe it. But no -- he never suggested we ought to baptize for the dead.

 

[Van]

You can find several different theories on what is in view, but many run counter to Paul's teachings in other passages.
I think the simplest view is the best, which is why carry on with the faith (and baptize new believers to replace those of us who pass away) if Christ did not rise from the dead.

Simple, and non-controversial.

 

[AresMan]

I think "the dead" refers to Christ as an argument for absurdity if the resurrection were not true and Christ were not raised.
1. You are all baptized in the name of Christ.
2. Some of you are teaching (like the Sadducees) that there is no resurrection (and Christ is not raised).
3. Baptism is always to identify one as a disciple of a living master.
4. "What shall we say to those (of you) who are baptized for the dead (i.e. Jesus) if so be that the dead (Jesus) rise not?"

 

[Darrell C]

I didn't say that.

That is just how it comes across, in my view.

You reiterate it here:

He said "EVEN the pagans realize there is a resurrection".

Where does Paul say this, except for this being perceived as what he is saying?

Consider:


1 Corinthians 15:26-29
King James Version (KJV)

26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.

28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

29 Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?


The question of v.29 asks the question "Why baptize at all if the dead do not rise?"

If we take it to mean Paul is speaking about pagans having a belief, this would validate their practice, and it is not, in my view, their practice Paul is validating, but Christian practice. It asks the same question that is consistent, "Why, if the dead rise not...do we bother? Because if the dead rise not, then it is impossible for Christ to have risen, hence our faith in the Resurrection is pointless."

Another question we can derive is "What will the dead do when they find out there is no resurrection of the dead?" I see a little humor there.

That's different.

Not really.

That's different. He was saying that the resurrection is so much of a given..it's just a fact...that EVEN the pagans believe it.

I just don't see that, but, if you do, okay.

But no -- he never suggested we ought to baptize for the dead.

Agreed.


God bless.

 

[Charles Blair]

Paul begins talking about the resurrection in verse 20, and spends the next 8 verses making it very plain that not only Christ rose from the dead, but that the Apostles and Prophets will also rise physically on that coming resurrection day.

In verses 29 through 34 Paul asks some questions concerning Christian practice (not doctrine).

If Christ, the Apostles, and the Prophets, are all dead, why be baptized on the basis of their teaching, for their teaching was obviously wrong.

Baptism pictures the death, burial, and RESURRECTION. If there is no resurrection, baptism does not make any sense, and to be baptized because a bunch of dead guys said so is just plain silly.

Paul then says the same thing about preaching and missions work. If all the guys that said to do that are dead forever, why take orders from a bunch of dead guys?

Why put my life in danger for nothing? Why fight with beasts (and men!) if the Gospel of the Resurrection (see verse 4) is not true.

He then says in verse 34, "Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame."

Because some of these Corinthian believers did not believe in the resurrection, they were not keeping the great commission, and many of their friends and neighbors had not heard the Gospel from them. Paul says "Shame on you and your unbelief."

Good approach. Thanks! Charles

 

[Vizio]

That is just how it comes across, in my view.

You reiterate it here:



Where does Paul say this, except for this being perceived as what he is saying?

Consider:


1 Corinthians 15:26-29
King James Version (KJV)

26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.

28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

29 Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?


The question of v.29 asks the question "Why baptize at all if the dead do not rise?"

If we take it to mean Paul is speaking about pagans having a belief, this would validate their practice, and it is not, in my view, their practice Paul is validating, but Christian practice. It asks the same question that is consistent, "Why, if the dead rise not...do we bother? Because if the dead rise not, then it is impossible for Christ to have risen, hence our faith in the Resurrection is pointless."

Another question we can derive is "What will the dead do when they find out there is no resurrection of the dead?" I see a little humor there.

Since baptism of the dead is nowhere mentioned in Scripture ANYWHERE else...that is, to me, the obvious meaning. He's not validating the practice, but he's saying that it's so self-evident that EVEN they know the resurrection happens. EVEN the pagans realize death is not the end.

He begins addressing the issue in v. 12 -- specifically that some were denying the fact of the resurrection of Christ, and resurrection in general. He is saying that if no one can be resurrected, as the Sadduccees taught (that's why they were sad, you see? ).....then Christ wasn't resurrected either.

He then goes on and says if no one will ever rise, then we are pitiful and can't be trusted. Our message is in vain.

Not really.



I just don't see that, but, if you do, okay.




Agreed.


God bless.

Great attitude...it's ok for us to disagree on Paul's rhetoric here. Maybe we understand it differently...but we do agree on the essentials.

 

[percho]

I think "the dead" refers to Christ as an argument for absurdity if the resurrection were not true and Christ were not raised.
1. You are all baptized in the name of Christ.
2. Some of you are teaching (like the Sadducees) that there is no resurrection (and Christ is not raised).
3. Baptism is always to identify one as a disciple of a living master.
4. "What shall we say to those (of you) who are baptized for the dead (i.e. Jesus) if so be that the dead (Jesus) rise not?"

One small problem might be, the dead, is plural.

 

[Genevanpreacher]

I just joined this forum and thought I would jump in with an easy question.

My Bible reading this morning was 1st Corinthians 15. I ran across these versus and have know idea what they mean and thought some of you that are more theologically educated may be able to help.

29 Otherwise, what do people mean by being baptized on behalf of the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized on their behalf?

Well, I use the 1560 edition of the Geneva Bible, and it states - "baptizing for dead" in that verse, with a gloss note saying - "or, as dead" - proving the proper mode of baptism - and disproving the fallacy of some, thinking that people actually baptized people for people that had died. Even Charles
Hodge stated that there existed no proof that anyone EVER were baptized for dead people during the bible time of the NT - ("the custom of which no account is extant") - and only occurred by false churches after the second century - called Cerinthians and Marcionites. Never by true followers of Jesus our Lord.

 

[Genevanpreacher]

Well, I use the 1560 edition of the Geneva Bible, and it states - "baptizing for dead" in that verse, with a gloss note saying - "or, as dead" - proving the proper mode of baptism - and disproving the fallacy of some, thinking that people actually baptized people for people that had died. Even Charles
Hodge stated that there existed no proof that anyone EVER were baptized for dead people during the bible time of the NT - ("the custom of which no account is extant") - and only occurred by false churches after the second century - called Cerinthians and Marcionites. Never by true followers of Jesus our Lord.

Sorry - it says "baptized for dead" not "baptizing..."