Backsliding vs. Having Never Been Saved

[Reynolds]

There is a HUGE difference between being indwelt and being filled with the Holy Spirit.
Then Bailey Smith is a fool.

So you have just called one of the most preeminent SBC evangelists and past president a fool? Fool should scripturally be reserved for those who say there is no God.
There is no difference between indwelling and filling of The Spirit. Pentecostals would say there is, but no difference to us Baptists.

 

[Reynolds]

In a normal situation, yes. Most people can have confidence in their salvation if they are walking in obedience.


Bailey Smith has a long history of saying unbiblical, damaging things about salvation and many other topics, including his infamous, "...God Almighty does not hear the prayer of a Jew" teaching.

While I do believe there are many who are on the church rolls who have not truly come to faith, a simple assertion that a period of doubt is evidence of not being in the family of God is false. Especially in an age and culture where the church does not emphasize discipleship and spiritual formation. If one is not being discipled and experiencing the reality of the Kingdom of God each day, then it is quite reasonable that someone would doubt.

I have had friends who passed through the baptismal waters four and five times trying to get the salvation "feeling" (no doubt) because they believed the lie that Bailey Smith and other evangelists teach, when they simply needed to relax and engage themselves in the Kingdom and experience the life of Christ developing in them.

If I remember correctly Bailey's statement about hearing the prayer of a Jew was very defensible. He teaches, like many other Baptists have taught for a long time, that the only prayer God hears from an unsaved person is the prayer of repentance/salvation. Bailey was saying, God does not hear the prayer of an unsaved person and being a Jew does not get their prayer heard. I do not exactly agree about God not hearing the prayers of the unsaved, but a large portion of Baptists believe it and teach it.

 

[Reynolds]

There is a HUGE difference between being indwelt and being filled with the Holy Spirit.
They Bailey Smith is a fool.

I personally would not call a past SBC President a fool. I think he deserves more respect than that.

Indwelling vs. Filling of The Holy Spirit, what's the difference? To a Pentecostal there is a difference, but not to a Baptist.

 

[Reynolds]

In a normal situation, yes. Most people can have confidence in their salvation if they are walking in obedience.


Bailey Smith has a long history of saying unbiblical, damaging things about salvation and many other topics, including his infamous, "...God Almighty does not hear the prayer of a Jew" teaching.

While I do believe there are many who are on the church rolls who have not truly come to faith, a simple assertion that a period of doubt is evidence of not being in the family of God is false. Especially in an age and culture where the church does not emphasize discipleship and spiritual formation. If one is not being discipled and experiencing the reality of the Kingdom of God each day, then it is quite reasonable that someone would doubt.

I have had friends who passed through the baptismal waters four and five times trying to get the salvation "feeling" (no doubt) because they believed the lie that Bailey Smith and other evangelists teach, when they simply needed to relax and engage themselves in the Kingdom and experience the life of Christ developing in them.

I can say that with me, there is no comparing the old man and the new man. The change was obvious 35 years ago and still visible today.

 

[tyndale1946]

In a normal situation, yes. Most people can have confidence in their salvation if they are walking in obedience.


Bailey Smith has a long history of saying unbiblical, damaging things about salvation and many other topics, including his infamous, "...God Almighty does not hear the prayer of a Jew" teaching.

While I do believe there are many who are on the church rolls who have not truly come to faith, a simple assertion that a period of doubt is evidence of not being in the family of God is false. Especially in an age and culture where the church does not emphasize discipleship and spiritual formation. If one is not being discipled and experiencing the reality of the Kingdom of God each day, then it is quite reasonable that someone would doubt.

I have had friends who passed through the baptismal waters four and five times trying to get the salvation "feeling" (no doubt) because they believed the lie that Bailey Smith and other evangelists teach, when they simply needed to relax and engage themselves in the Kingdom and experience the life of Christ developing in them.

I don't know about anyone else on here but you don't question something you don't have... If you question it that is evidence that you do... Backsliding?... We all go through trials, afflictions, and suffering... Some more than others... So let me ask everyone on here... How strong is your Amazing Grace?... Remember Satan may try you but he will never own you because you belong to another... And he knows it!... Brother Glen

 

[Baptist Believer]

There is no difference between indwelling and filling of The Spirit. Pentecostals would say there is, but no difference to us Baptists.

You better check again. I am not a Pentecostal, but the scripture clearly gives a command for believers to "be filled with the Spirit." If it was the same as the indwelling that all believers have, there would be no need for the command.

 

[Baptist Believer]

If I remember correctly Bailey's statement about hearing the prayer of a Jew was very defensible.

Most things are defensible, not many things are biblical.

He teaches, like many other Baptists have taught for a long time, that the only prayer God hears from an unsaved person is the prayer of repentance/salvation. Bailey was saying, God does not hear the prayer of an unsaved person and being a Jew does not get their prayer heard. I do not exactly agree about God not hearing the prayers of the unsaved, but a large portion of Baptists believe it and teach it.

Sure. They believe it because people like him make extrabiblical claims. That doesn't make it true.

 

[Baptist Believer]

I personally would not call a past SBC President a fool. I think he deserves more respect than that

You're putting a lot of weight on the fact that he served as an SBC President. It's not a priesthood nor does it confer lifetime authority and sanction by God.

 

[Baptist Believer]

I can say that with me, there is no comparing the old man and the new man. The change was obvious 35 years ago and still visible today.

And you probably are not suffering from mental illness. That's the context here.

As a former pastor and a minister to numerous people over the past 30 years, I have worked with many people who struggle with mental illness. I have also gone through a period in my life marked by profound grief where I needed to step away from church life for about two years because the church folks were compounding my troubles with unbiblical teaching and condemnation - "If you don't feel close to God, guess who moved?"

We are addressing a specific - and unfortunately - common situation. Please don't assume everyone else has been as blessed as you have in the mental health department.

 

[Reynolds]

You better check again. I am not a Pentecostal, but the scripture clearly gives a command for believers to "be filled with the Spirit." If it was the same as the indwelling that all believers have, there would be no need for the command.

It references a continuing refreshing. It does not reference separate outpouring.

 

[Reynolds]

You're putting a lot of weight on the fact that he served as an SBC President. It's not a priesthood nor does it confer lifetime authority and sanction by God.

I think it puts him above the status of "fool."

 

[Baptist Believer]

I don't know about anyone else on here but you don't question something you don't have... If you question it that is evidence that you do...

That's a good point. If you are concerned about backsliding and whether or not you have been saved, then you are quite aware of God and want to be in God's good graces. Since we don't come into the Kingdom by saying certain magic words, but by a contrite heart toward God and faith, that's strong evidence.

 

[Baptist Believer]

It references a continuing refreshing. It does not reference separate outpouring.

And that's filling of the Holy Spirit.

Maybe you were thinking of what is sometimes called "the baptism of the Holy Spirit." That's a different thing entirely and limited to Charismatic and Pentecostal groups.

 

[Baptist Believer]

I think it puts him above the status of "fool."

Not sure if our friend was referencing the Sermon on the Mount by his use of "fool" (that passage is really more about insulting people - murdering them with words), but Bailey Smith has clearly spoken foolishly on numerous occasions.

 

[Reynolds]

Not sure if our friend was referencing the Sermon on the Mount by his use of "fool" (that passage is really more about insulting people - murdering them with words), but Bailey Smith has clearly spoken foolishly on numerous occasions.

Does that make a brother in Christ a fool?

 

[Reynolds]

And that's filling of the Holy Spirit.

Maybe you were thinking of what is sometimes called "the baptism of the Holy Spirit." That's a different thing entirely and limited to Charismatic and Pentecostal groups.

I understand the terms. Though I am Baptist, I was educated in a Charismatic seminary.

 

[TCassidy]

So you have just called one of the most preeminent SBC evangelists and past president a fool?

I have never been much of a man worshiper.

Fool should scripturally be reserved for those who say there is no God.

Or those who make a practice of saying foolish things.

There is no difference between indwelling and filling of The Spirit.

Nonsense. Christians are commanded to be filled with the Holy Spirit. Ephesians 5:18. As all Christians are already indwelt with the Holy Spirit either you are wrong or the bible is wrong in Ephesians 5:18.

Pentecostals would say there is, but no difference to us Baptists.

You don't speak for "us baptists." I accept what the bible says concerning the difference between being indwelt and being filled. Big difference.

 

[Reynolds]

I have never been much of a man worshiper.

Or those who make a practice of saying foolish things.

Nonsense. Christians are commanded to be filled with the Holy Spirit. Ephesians 5:18. As all Christians are already indwelt with the Holy Spirit either you are wrong or the bible is wrong in Ephesians 5:18.

You don't speak for "us baptists." I accept what the bible says concerning the difference between being indwelt and being filled. Big difference.

The filling to which you refer is literally a continual process of refreshing and not a separate filling.

 

[TCassidy]

The filling to which you refer is literally a continual process of refreshing and not a separate filling.

Nobody said it was separate.

 

[Darrell C]

This is an issue that makes me do a decent amount of thinking.

How do you know if you've just been backsliding vs. having never been saved in the first place?

I wonder for personal reasons. Due to my mental illness, I periodically enter mood states (both "up" and "down") that can last for several weeks or more. During some of these extended periods, I occasionally become more religious and end up with a better devotional life. More frequently, though, I end up either having some sort of religious delusion (although not very often) or (quite often) turning away from God and looking into other religions, atheism, etc.

When I emerge from the mood state, I typically move back toward God and the church, seeking to undo the damage, as much as is possible. I usually have some sort of sin for which I need to repent (sometimes more extreme than others).

I know that I can't necessarily generalize my experience because it has factors from my bipolar disorder (such as delusions), but I would still be saved the same way as any other person. I'm just not sure how to interpret my inconsistent experiences.

I've done the whole getting rebaptized thing because I thought my initial profession of faith was false, but I honestly don't know that it was. It's hard for me to get a real grasp on my experiences because I can't truly trust my own mind.

Anyway, any of your thoughts are welcome. Just try not to bash me too much .

Stefan, I would suggest to you that you differ from most people...not at all.

All of us "do better" when we are walking more closely with the Lord. My prescription for your "mental illness" is to immerse yourself in time spent with the Lord in His Word, which is one of the surest ways we have to allow God to communicate with us.

If you stay in His Word you are going to be less likely to entertain notions about other religions. All of us, having some knowledge of Scripture, can sit around and devise philosophies when we remain distant from the very Word that offers cleansing for our understandings and this is going to impact how we live our lives.

As far as questioning your salvation, my friend...that is a great indicator of salvation, in my own view. Religious people seldom doubt their salvation, and mentally ill people are not usually aware they are mentally ill. Some, like yourself, perhaps, think they are...because that is what they have been told they are. However, if you listen to what God has to say to you, and about you, I am quite confident that your "moods" will be improved.

Scripture demands diligence of disciples, and it isn't easy all the time, but, one thing I know from personal experience is the more time I spend with God in His Word, the more my own "moods" remain content. We can all, in the circumstances we are in, get depressed and unhappy at times. So don't overlook the resources you have as a Christian, the first being your relationship with the Lord Himself.

As I said, I am convinced of the power of the Word of God to change our hearts and lives, and to direct the quality of life we have. Doesn't mean circumstances are going to be easy, but, we will be better able to navigate when we are seeking to be close with the Lord. As one preacher mentioned, people are always asking what God's will for their life is, and the simple answer he gives is holding up his Bible. It's right there for us to learn.

And if you ever need someone to talk to, let me know. I was a drunk and a druggie and have some experience with court-mandated "intervention," lol.


God bless.