Christianity and Paganism - What is the Truth?

[MennoSota]

You said that water baptism doesn't save anyone. Then why does Peter says, "baptism now saves you?' Peter knew we are saved by grace yet Peter can say baptism saves because that is how the grace that saves is given to us.

Jesus says. " he who believes AND is baptized will be saved" . Jesus could have said he who believes is saved and "then" is baptized but He didn't. You are the one saying that.

The idea that baptism is a symbol is arguing from silence and conjecture.
The Trinity is important yet the apostles never mention it. Does that mean it isn't true? That's the Mormon's and Oneness Pentecostal argument against it. You can't just blow off Tradition. Nowhere does the bible say not to hold on to what was passed down after the first century. That seems important. Why didn't they mention that?

The Jews would have been outraged had their children not been allowed to be baptized. Romans 6:5 says we are united to Christ in baptism. In Galatians 3:27 he says we have been baptized into Christ. To deny Jewish infants the right to be baptized into their Messiah would have cause a mass exodus from Christianity.

By your logic, if there is no water available a person will die in their sins.
No, Peter does not say that water baptism saves. The baptism of the Spirit, which happens at regeneration, is evidence of salvation. Water is irrelevant to salvation.

 

[Yeshua1]

Christians are not gnostics. There is no reason to fear the material world that God created. The earth was formed out of water. The apostles used water to baptize. The Eunich said, "look here is water! What is to prevent me from being baptized? Acts 10:36
Is water without the words given to us by Christ valid? No. The power comes from God in the water and the words.

There is literally NOTHING that is caused spiritually by being dipped in the water!

 

[Yeshua1]

Obviously you were taught wrong. I've seen old Catechisms and none of them taught what you just said. You should have done your own investigation.There is nothing in 1 Tim 2:5 that is opposed to what the Catholic Church has always taught. We are all secondary mediators just like Moses when he was a mediator between God and Israel. In Luke 16 Jesus tells the parable of the rich man and poor man and Abraham is asked to intercede and ask Lazarus to plead with a man's brothers on earth so that they might repent. Apparently Jesus has no problem with the intercession of those in heaven on our behalf.

There are NO scriptures that state any other than Jesus intercedes for us in Heaven!

 

[Yeshua1]

Water and Spirit is what Jesus said. The "washing" of regeneration in Titus 3:5 is a reference to water. Peter compares baptism to the waters of the flood where the righteous were separated from the unrighteous and sin was wiped off the earth by water. The fact that God can use the material world that he created shouldn't frighten you.

The water is the washing that comes from applying the word of God by the Holy Spirit, as faith comes by hearing of word of God!

 

[Yeshua1]

The members of the body of Christ in heaven are dead?

Physically dead yes, and again, NO scriptures tell us that any other than Jesus intercedes for us before God, why would they, is Jesus not sufficient to handle that as our High Priest?

 

[HankD]

Scripture also say that whoever believes in Him has eternal life. Infants can't believe in Him, therefore they are going to hell?

Belief would only apply to adults not infants. A Jewish infant did not have to believe to be circumcised. That was done based on the faith of the parents. Baptism is no different. You are also missing the point that we are in a Covenant with God. A New Covenant. Jews were circumcised to be in the Old Covenant. How does one become a member of the New Covenant? Baptism which Col. 1:24 calls the circumcision of the Messiah.

What then of females under the Old Covenant?

I don't see how there is a correlation between the Old and New Covenants circumcision vs baptism as rites of passage seeing that both male and female are included in the ordinance of New Covenant baptism with the requirement of volitional and an understandable faith in Jesus Christ - baptism being a picture of our identity with Him in His death, burial and resurrection to newness of life.

HankD

 

[saved by grace]

By your logic, if there is no water available a person will die in their sins.
No, Peter does not say that water baptism saves. The baptism of the Spirit, which happens at regeneration, is evidence of salvation. Water is irrelevant to salvation.

Its not by my logic. It my the words of Scripture.

Peter was inspired by the Holy Spirit to say, "baptism now saves you." He compares the waters of baptism to those of the flood that washed away all sin from the earth. He says this is not like having filth washed off your body but an interior cleansing. This is the same Peter who said, " “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."
That hardly sounds like symbolism. I'm just reading the text as they are written.
As Scripture says there is "one Lord, one faith, one baptism." There aren't two baptisms. Regeneration takes place in water baptism as Titus 3:5 says.
The movement of the Holy Spirit in a person's life isn't regeneration. It's the call of God. Just like Cornelius in Acts 10. He wasn't yet regenerated but his prayers were pleasing to God. He was being moved by the Holy Spirit to believe and to be baptized. Our nature is not depraved. It is wounded and God can move a wounded nature to believe in Him and then be born again in water baptism.

 

[Yeshua1]

Its not by my logic. It my the words of Scripture.

Peter was inspired by the Holy Spirit to say, "baptism now saves you." He compares the waters of baptism to those of the flood that washed away all sin from the earth. He says this is not like having filth washed off your body but an interior cleansing. This is the same Peter who said, " “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."
That hardly sounds like symbolism. I'm just reading the text as they are written.
As Scripture says there is "one Lord, one faith, one baptism." There aren't two baptisms. Regeneration takes place in water baptism as Titus 3:5 says.
The movement of the Holy Spirit in a person's life isn't regeneration. It's the call of God. Just like Cornelius in Acts 10. He wasn't yet regenerated but his prayers were pleasing to God. He was being moved by the Holy Spirit to believe and to be baptized. Our nature is not depraved. It is wounded and God can move a wounded nature to believe in Him and then be born again in water baptism.

Water is not what saves you, its what that represents , the peron of Jesus Himself!

 

[saved by grace]

What then of females under the Old Covenant?

I don't see how there is a correlation between the Old and New Covenants circumcision vs baptism as rites of passage seeing that both male and female are included in the ordinance of New Covenant baptism with the requirement of volitional and an understandable faith in Jesus Christ - baptism being a picture of our identity with Him in His death, burial and resurrection to newness of life.

HankD

In Judaism females are part of the Covenant because they help God fulfill His promise to Abraham that he will be the father of many nations. Females give birth to the descendants of Abraham. However the New Covenant is better than the Old. Some Jewish women couldn't give birth and were looked down on. In baptism all are equal. All can enter God's covenant. As Scritpure says"

"For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free."
That one Spirit is given in water baptism as Jesus says in John 3:5 "water and Spirit" and as Peter says in Acts 2:38 "receive the gift of the Holy Spirit"

 

[saved by grace]

Water is not what saves you, its what that represents , the peron of Jesus Himself!

Peter, Paul and Jesus disagree with you. "Baptism now saves you." ......he who believes and is baptized will be saved.....unless one is born of water and Spirit he cannot enter the kingdom of God."......."he saved us............by the washing of regeneration and renewal n the Holy Spirit which he poured out upon richly through Jesus Christ our Savior so that we might be justified by his grace and become heirs in hope of eternal life" Titus 3:5-7

We are saved by grace and that saving grace is first received in water baptism.

 

[saved by grace]

There is literally NOTHING that is caused spiritually by being dipped in the water!

After Jesus was baptized and the Holy Spirit came upon him, the water of baptism was changed and when water is used with the words God gave us for baptism something spiritual does happen.

 

[saved by grace]

The water is the washing that comes from applying the word of God by the Holy Spirit, as faith comes by hearing of word of God!

Faith comes by hearing but not salvation. The Word of God to be used with water is " I baptize you in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit" That is when a person is sanctified and justified....."but you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and in the Spirit of our God." 1 Cor 6:11

 

[saved by grace]

Physically dead yes, and again, NO scriptures tell us that any other than Jesus intercedes for us before God, why would they, is Jesus not sufficient to handle that as our High Priest?

Rev 5 and Rev 8 depict those in heaven receiving the prayers of the saints on earth. Their prayers did not go directly to God. That is the imagery of intercession. In Luke 16 Abraham is asked to have Lazarus to warn people on earth to repent so that they would not end up in hell. That is intercession. Jesus is the one telling the parable. He doesn't have the same problem you do.

 

[saved by grace]

Water is not what saves you, its what that represents , the peron of Jesus Himself!

Why would you say that water represents Jesus? It seems to me that water is one of the representations of the Holy Spirit.
In Rev 22:1 the "water of life" is the Holy Spirit. The water that Jesus was going to give the woman at the well was the Holy Spirit. In John 3:5 Jesus says, "water and Spirit" . In baptism they are one and the same. You can't use Coca Cola to baptize.

In John 7:37 he says, "He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water." But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive"

 

[HankD]

In Judaism females are part of the Covenant because they help God fulfill His promise to Abraham that he will be the father of many nations. Females give birth to the descendants of Abraham. However the New Covenant is better than the Old. Some Jewish women couldn't give birth and were looked down on. In baptism all are equal. All can enter God's covenant. As Scripture says"

"For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free."
That one Spirit is given in water baptism as Jesus says in John 3:5 "water and Spirit" and as Peter says in Acts 2:38 "receive the gift of the Holy Spirit"

There is a "new" baptism for the "New" Covenant:

Douay-Rheims
Luke 3:16 John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire

HankD

 

[saved by grace]

There is a "new" baptism for the "New" Covenant:

Douay-Rheims
Luke 3:16 John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire

HankD

That is not how we are "baptized into Christ" Gal. 3:27
That is not how we are buried with Christ in baptism bringing a newness of life. Romans 6:3-4
That is now how we are born again. John 3:5

The apostles were already born again, regenerated, saved and in the New Covenant when at Pentecost the Holy Spirit was poured out upon them giving them the power to speak in tongues and preach the Gospel to all nations. That event is what Catholics would call the Sacrament of Confirmation where the Holy Spirit is given for a special purpose, to empower you to spread the Good News.

 

[MennoSota]

Scripture also say that whoever believes in Him has eternal life. Infants can't believe in Him, therefore they are going to hell?

Belief would only apply to adults not infants. A Jewish infant did not have to believe to be circumcised. That was done based on the faith of the parents. Baptism is no different. You are also missing the point that we are in a Covenant with God. A New Covenant. Jews were circumcised to be in the Old Covenant. How does one become a member of the New Covenant? Baptism which Col. 1:24 calls the circumcision of the Messiah.

What does the scripture indicate regarding infants that die? We have David's response to his infant son's death. There David indicates that when he dies he will go on to see his infant son. David's infant son had not been baptized.

 

[MennoSota]

Peter, Paul and Jesus disagree with you. "Baptism now saves you." ......he who believes and is baptized will be saved.....unless one is born of water and Spirit he cannot enter the kingdom of God."......."he saved us............by the washing of regeneration and renewal n the Holy Spirit which he poured out upon richly through Jesus Christ our Savior so that we might be justified by his grace and become heirs in hope of eternal life" Titus 3:5-7

We are saved by grace and that saving grace is first received in water baptism.

You are confusing the baptism of the Spirit with water baptism. Peter, Paul and Jesus do not say that water baptism saves a person from damnation. Your interpretation is incorrect.

 

[saved by grace]

What does the scripture indicate regarding infants that die? We have David's response to his infant son's death. There David indicates that when he dies he will go on to see his infant son. David's infant son had not been baptized.

His also did not believe which according to the New Testament is required. Also when David's son died the gates of heaven were not yet opened so he went to hades (Abraham's Bosom)

 

[saved by grace]

You are confusing the baptism of the Spirit with water baptism. Peter, Paul and Jesus do not say that water baptism saves a person from damnation. Your interpretation is incorrect.

I'm just quoting Scripture which says baptism now saves you. There is only One Lord, One faith and One baptism according to Scripture. You are saying there are two. I have to go with Scripture.