Christianity and Paganism - What is the Truth?

[saved by grace]

You are asking us to argue from silence.
What we know is that there are writings in the canon of the New Testament that are ascribed to the Apostles or their compatriots. There is no evidence of traditions beyond praying together, baptism and remembering the Lord's Supper. The church at Rome has added layer upon layer upon layer that has no biblical source.
Example: Nowhere in the Bible can you find baptism of infants for the purpose of salvation. Yet, the church at Rome practices this tradition and teaches that infants are saved by the ceremony.

So you completely dismiss Origen's statement from the 200's " "For this reason, moreover, the Church received from the apostles the tradition of baptizing infants too." Homily on Romans, V:9

Hippolytus from the same time period.
“Baptize first the children and if they can speak for themselves let them do so. Otherwise, let their parents or other relatives speak for them”. Apostolic Tradition

 

[Yeshua1]

Yes, but when you have agreement on what a passage means from those in the East, West, North, South then it seems to me that is a solid indicator that the interpretation is one that one handed down by the apostles. John 3:5 is a great example. Everyone believed we are born again in water baptism.

Jesus did not, neither did His Apostles!

 

[HankD]

You need to be honest and explain what those titles actually mean and not what you want them to mean. You said that the Catholic church teaches that no one is saved without Mary's consent. Please provide a quote from the Catholic Catechism that says that.

This is a deflection, go to the site that I referenced to get your answer.

Jesus did not just come physically through Mary but by means of the consent of her will and her faith as noted above. In other words because of Mary’s consent and her faith the person who is All Grace is given to the world.

Mary Mediatrix of All Grace

HankD

 

[saved by grace]

Jesus did not, neither did His Apostles!

How do you know they didn't? Jesus said one must be born again and then he talks about how to do that, through water and Spirit......baptism. Paul calls baptism the "washing of regeneration" in Titus 3:5

 

[Yeshua1]

How do you know they didn't? Jesus said one must be born again and then he talks about how to do that, through water and Spirit......baptism. Paul calls baptism the "washing of regeneration" in Titus 3:5

The water being referenced there would be the washing and regeneration of the word of God itself, not water, as the water has NO power to save!

 

[saved by grace]

This is a deflection, go to the site that I referenced to get your answer.



Mary Mediatrix of All Grace

HankD

Your link states the following, "St. Paul tells us he was entrusted with the grace meant for others and in that way he was a mediator of that grace between God and the people (Eph 3:2-13). Another way of putting it was that he was the dispenser of the grace entrusted to him that was meant for others"

Amen. Paul was an administrator of God's grace. That is what Scripture says.

It then says, "
How Mary is Mediatrix of all graces is a simple expansion of this idea; the Grace of salvation for all is, Jesus Christ, and He was entrusted to Mary by God for the world. All Grace, Jesus, was given to the world by and through Mary........Jesus did not just come physically through Mary but by means of the consent of her will and her faith as noted above. In other words because of Mary’s consent and her faith the person who is All Grace is given to the world. For these two reasons, her faith and consent and her bringing Jesus to the world Mary is the mediatrix or channel of All Grace as embodied in the Person of her Son, Jesus. Without her consent and faith we would not have our Saviour come into the world. Also since Mary received Jesus from the Father, carried Him in her womb and finally at Cana gave Him to the world, she is the dispenser of All Grace, Jesus Christ and therefore she is also the dispenser of every individual grace."

Amen. That's not saying what you are saying. Mary isn't in heaven with a check list deciding who gets grace and who doesn't. All grace comes from God. She is a dispenser of grace by analogy. Because she gave birth to the "channel of All Grace" Jesus Christ she is called the mediatrix of grace.
That's all it means, nothing else.

 

[Yeshua1]

Your link states the following, "St. Paul tells us he was entrusted with the grace meant for others and in that way he was a mediator of that grace between God and the people (Eph 3:2-13). Another way of putting it was that he was the dispenser of the grace entrusted to him that was meant for others"

Amen. Paul was an administrator of God's grace. That is what Scripture says.

It then says, "
How Mary is Mediatrix of all graces is a simple expansion of this idea; the Grace of salvation for all is, Jesus Christ, and He was entrusted to Mary by God for the world. All Grace, Jesus, was given to the world by and through Mary........Jesus did not just come physically through Mary but by means of the consent of her will and her faith as noted above. In other words because of Mary’s consent and her faith the person who is All Grace is given to the world. For these two reasons, her faith and consent and her bringing Jesus to the world Mary is the mediatrix or channel of All Grace as embodied in the Person of her Son, Jesus. Without her consent and faith we would not have our Saviour come into the world. Also since Mary received Jesus from the Father, carried Him in her womb and finally at Cana gave Him to the world, she is the dispenser of All Grace, Jesus Christ and therefore she is also the dispenser of every individual grace."

Amen. That's not saying what you are saying. Mary isn't in heaven with a check list deciding who gets grace and who doesn't. All grace comes from God. She is a dispenser of grace by analogy. Because she gave birth to the "channel of All Grace" Jesus Christ she is called the mediatrix of grace.
That's all it means, nothing else.

She is also called the intercessor for sinners, taking over for jesus and Holy Spirit, the co metrix of Heaven, really the RCC has 4 members in their Trinity!

 

[saved by grace]

The water being referenced there would be the washing and regeneration of the word of God itself, not water, as the water has NO power to save!

Water by itself has no power but the grace that saves is in the water. You can't baptize someone with Coca Cola. It must be water for a reason. When you properly understand grace you will get it. Peter who knew we are saved by grace said, "Baptism now saves you." He made no distinction between baptism and grace.
Jesus knew we are saved by grace yet He said, "He who believes and is baptized will be saved." Jesus made no distinction between belief and grace and baptism and grace.

 

[saved by grace]

She is also called the intercessor for sinners, taking over for jesus and Holy Spirit, the co metrix of Heaven, really the RCC has 4 members in their Trinity!

We are all intercessor for sinners. Why do you think we are to pray for one another?

 

[Yeshua1]

We are all intercessor for sinners. Why do you think we are to pray for one another?

Dead do not pray!

 

[Yeshua1]

Water by itself has no power but the grace that saves is in the water. You can't baptize someone with Coca Cola. It must be water for a reason. When you properly understand grace you will get it. Peter who knew we are saved by grace said, "Baptism now saves you." He made no distinction between baptism and grace.
Jesus knew we are saved by grace yet He said, "He who believes and is baptized will be saved." Jesus made no distinction between belief and grace and baptism and grace.

The power to save is in No watre, as peter stated that it is in not in baptizm, bu tthe power is in the one whose Name we are baptized under, Jesus!

 

[Yeshua1]

Dead do not pray!

NO scriptures tellus that Mary intercedes in heaven for us, as that is left to only Jesus!

 

[Bro. James]

Sounds like this co-redemptrix analogy comes from the same analogy class as transubstantiation.

This is mostly religious double speak. The same words have different definitions. John 14:6 is not an analogy.

Basic paradigm: a child can understand the things of God. Now what?

God does not author confusion. Pagan idolatry is alive and well on planet earth. Many do worship in vain teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. This seems to be a part of our fallen nature.

Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

Bro. James

 

[MennoSota]

So you completely dismiss Origen's statement from the 200's " "For this reason, moreover, the Church received from the apostles the tradition of baptizing infants too." Homily on Romans, V:9

Hippolytus from the same time period.
“Baptize first the children and if they can speak for themselves let them do so. Otherwise, let their parents or other relatives speak for them”. Apostolic Tradition

Yes. Origen was a heretic.

Yes. There is zero evidence in the Bible for infant baptism. What we know is that the scriptures supercede Origen and Hippolytus. One thing that is obvious in studying history is that pagan cultures added their own practices on top of the Bible. These traditions are always subservient when they conflict with the Bible. Infant baptism is a clear example of a practice added by others outside of Scripture. The teaching is anathema to God's word in regards to redemption and adoption by God.

 

[MennoSota]

Water by itself has no power but the grace that saves is in the water.

There is zero reference in the scriptures. You are parroting the church of Rome's opinion, even though the Bible does not support such a claim.
Grace is not like a cosmic dishwashing soap. It's not found in water. God displays grace when he makes us alive, when we deserved to remain dead in our trespasses and sins.

 

[Yeshua1]

There is zero reference in the scriptures. You are parroting the church of Rome's opinion, even though the Bible does not support such a claim.
Grace is not like a cosmic dishwashing soap. It's not found in water. God displays grace when he makes us alive, when we deserved to remain dead in our trespasses and sins.

The power and means to do salvation is in the person of the Holy Spirit, God forbid that it be in water!

 

[HankD]

Your link states the following, "St. Paul tells us he was entrusted with the grace meant for others and in that way he was a mediator of that grace between God and the people (Eph 3:2-13). Another way of putting it was that he was the dispenser of the grace entrusted to him that was meant for others"

Amen. Paul was an administrator of God's grace. That is what Scripture says.

It then says, "
How Mary is Mediatrix of all graces is a simple expansion of this idea; the Grace of salvation for all is, Jesus Christ, and He was entrusted to Mary by God for the world. All Grace, Jesus, was given to the world by and through Mary........Jesus did not just come physically through Mary but by means of the consent of her will and her faith as noted above. In other words because of Mary’s consent and her faith the person who is All Grace is given to the world. For these two reasons, her faith and consent and her bringing Jesus to the world Mary is the mediatrix or channel of All Grace as embodied in the Person of her Son, Jesus. Without her consent and faith we would not have our Saviour come into the world. Also since Mary received Jesus from the Father, carried Him in her womb and finally at Cana gave Him to the world, she is the dispenser of All Grace, Jesus Christ and therefore she is also the dispenser of every individual grace."

Amen. That's not saying what you are saying. Mary isn't in heaven with a check list deciding who gets grace and who doesn't. All grace comes from God. She is a dispenser of grace by analogy. Because she gave birth to the "channel of All Grace" Jesus Christ she is called the mediatrix of grace.
That's all it means, nothing else.

That was not what I was taught in my youth. I was taught to pray to Mary in the same manner as I was taught to pray to God as if she is omnipresent and can simultaneously hear the prayers of millions/billions at one time and grant requests as well with rosaries at the mass for the dead to have her plead with her Son for release of souls from purgatory.

Over the years since my youth the RCC has used orwellian doublethink apologetics to soften the offensive blows to biblical Christianity.

However several hundred years of older papal encyclicals have taught differently - Marian personal mediation.

Leo XIII (+1903) writes that “with equal truth may it be also affirmed that, by the will of God, Mary is the intermediary through whom is distributed unto us this immense treasure of mercies gathered by God, for mercy and truth were created by Jesus Christ. Thus as no man goes to the Father but by the Son, so no man goes to Christ but by his Mother” (62).

In another encyclical, Leo XIII explains that in the vocal recitation of the Rosary we address first the Father who is in heaven and then the Virgin Mary. “Thus is confirmed that law of merciful meditation of which we have spoken, and which St. Bernardine of Siena thus expresses: ‘Every grace granted to man has three degrees in order; for by God it is communicated to Christ, from Christ it passes to the Virgin, and from the Virgin it descends to us’” (63). At the end of the encyclical the Holy Father, citing the authority of St. Bernard of Clairvaux, reaffirms that God has given us a “Mediatrix” in Mary, willing “that all good should come to us by the hands of Mary” (64).

In Leo’s Encyclical Adiutricem populi, we read that the Blessed Virgin Mary, “who was so intimately associated with the mystery of human salvation is just as closely associated with the distribution of the graces which for all time will flow from the redemption. … Among her many other titles we find her hailed as ‘Our Lady, our Mediatrix,’ ‘the Reparatrix of the whole world,’ ‘the Dispenser of all heavenly gifts’” (65).
...
examining the conciliar text of No. 62 of Lumen Gentium, we read the following:

Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this salvific duty, but by her constant intercession continued to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation. By her maternal charity, she cares for the brethren of her Son, who still journey on earth surrounded by dangers and difficulties, until they are led into the happiness of their true home. Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked by the Church under the titles of Advocate, Auxiliatrix, Adjutrix, and Mediatrix. This, however, is to be so understood that it neither takes away from nor adds anything to the dignity and efficaciousness of Christ the one Mediator (92).

Mary Mediatrix of All Graces, Part II | Fifth Marian Dogma

Plus many many more...

True, Jesus Christ is almost always at the very head of the list of mediation of the salvific graces yet the very titles given to Mary are offensive to the "separated Brethren".

As well as a violation of scripture.

Douay-Rheims
1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God: and one mediator of God and men, the man Christ Jesus:

HankD

 

[saved by grace]

The power to save is in No watre, as peter stated that it is in not in baptizm, bu tthe power is in the one whose Name we are baptized under, Jesus!

Christians are not gnostics. There is no reason to fear the material world that God created. The earth was formed out of water. The apostles used water to baptize. The Eunich said, "look here is water! What is to prevent me from being baptized? Acts 10:36
Is water without the words given to us by Christ valid? No. The power comes from God in the water and the words.

 

[saved by grace]

That was not what I was taught in my youth. I was taught to pray to Mary in the same manner as I was taught to pray to God as if she is omnipresent and can simultaneously hear the prayers of millions/billions at one time and grant requests as well with rosaries at the mass for the dead to have her plead with her Son for release of souls from purgatory.

Over the years since my youth the RCC has used orwellian doublethink apologetics to soften the offensive blows to biblical Christianity.

However several hundred years of older papal encyclicals have taught differently - Marian personal mediation.



Mary Mediatrix of All Graces, Part II | Fifth Marian Dogma

Plus many many more...

True, Jesus Christ is almost always at the very head of the list of mediation of the salvific graces yet the very titles given to Mary are offensive to the "separated Brethren".

As well as a violation of scripture.

Douay-Rheims
1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God: and one mediator of God and men, the man Christ Jesus:

HankD

Obviously you were taught wrong. I've seen old Catechisms and none of them taught what you just said. You should have done your own investigation.There is nothing in 1 Tim 2:5 that is opposed to what the Catholic Church has always taught. We are all secondary mediators just like Moses when he was a mediator between God and Israel. In Luke 16 Jesus tells the parable of the rich man and poor man and Abraham is asked to intercede and ask Lazarus to plead with a man's brothers on earth so that they might repent. Apparently Jesus has no problem with the intercession of those in heaven on our behalf.

 

[saved by grace]

The power and means to do salvation is in the person of the Holy Spirit, God forbid that it be in water!

Water and Spirit is what Jesus said. The "washing" of regeneration in Titus 3:5 is a reference to water. Peter compares baptism to the waters of the flood where the righteous were separated from the unrighteous and sin was wiped off the earth by water. The fact that God can use the material world that he created shouldn't frighten you.