Christianity and Paganism - What is the Truth?

[Yeshua1]

The weary old theory that Christianity is just paganism warmed up always circulates around this time of year.

Armchair atheists like to point out the similarity between the word “Easter” and the Near Eastern goddess “Ishtar”. The problem is, the myth of Ishtar had nothing to do with resurrection from the dead. She was the goddess of fertility, and went down into the underworld, but that’s about the extent of the similarity between the myth of Ishtar and the story of Jesus Christ. From Wikipedia, here is the story of Ishtar. See how similar it feels to the gospel account of Jesus’ death and resurrection:

One of the most famous myths[6] about Ishtar describes her descent to the underworld. In this myth, Ishtar approaches the gates of the underworld and demands that the gatekeeper open them:

If thou openest not the gate to let me enter,
I will break the door, I will wrench the lock,
I will smash the door-posts, I will force the doors.
I will bring up the dead to eat the living.
And the dead will outnumber the living.

The gatekeeper hurried to tell Ereshkigal, the Queen of the Underworld. Ereshkigal told the gatekeeper to let Ishtar enter, but “according to the ancient decree”.

The gatekeeper let Ishtar into the underworld, opening one gate at a time. At each gate, Ishtar had to shed one article of clothing. When she finally passed the seventh gate, she was naked. In a rage, Ishtar threw herself at Ereshkigal, but Ereshkigal ordered her servant Namtar to imprison Ishtar and unleash sixty diseases against her.

After Ishtar descended to the underworld, all sexual activity ceased on earth. The god Papsukal reported the situation to Ea, the king of the gods. Ea created an intersex being called Asu-shu-namir and sent them to Ereshkigal, telling them to invoke “the name of the great gods” against her and to ask for the bag containing the waters of life. Ereshkigal was enraged when she heard Asu-shu-namir’s demand, but she had to give them the water of life. Asu-shu-namir sprinkled Ishtar with this water, reviving her. Then, Ishtar passed back through the seven gates, getting one article of clothing back at each gate, and was fully clothed as she exited the last gate.

Most ludicrous is the supposition that because the word “Ishtar” sounds like “Easter” they must be linked.

In fact “Ishtar” is of Akkadian origin and Easter comes from Anglo Saxon. Thinking they are linked is kind of like saying “Elvis” must be linked to the resurrection because it is an anagram of “Lives”.

Early Christians didn't hi-jack pagan myths and lay a heavy layer of mythology over the simple Jesus story. Do a little more research before posting falsehood.

The early churech did not do that, but the RCC did later on!

 

[saved by grace]

Hmm where can we start.

The RCC teaches that Mary (Jesus mother) is the Mediatrix of all graces, Co-Redemptrix with Christ and that no one can be saved without her consent:

Now I love Mary the mother of Jesus as I love all the saints but this goes to far:



Mary Mediatrix of All Grace

Scripture(s) please.

HankD

Where are you getting your ideas from? Nowhere does the Catholic Church teach that no one is saved without her consent. What the Catholic Church officially believes is easy to find and you will never find anything like that.
Mediatrix and Co-Redemptix are not infallible dogmas of the Church. They are theological reflections. Those titles do not mean Mary is a Redeemer or that grace is generated by her. All it means is that she cooperated with God by giving birth to the Redeemer and throughout her life she lived for Christ. Catholic Theology is simply deeper then Protestant. Catholics think and write about the mysteries of God.

 

[saved by grace]

I don't disagree with you, however, my point was that the claim of Rome as the indisputed interpreter of Scripture and accurate interpreter of Scripture is not true. What is true is that the Roman church uses tradition to interpret Scripture.

Interpreting from Tradition that goes back thousands of years by people who lived in the apostolic age is going to be more reliable than interpreting scripture based on the feelings of someone who lived 15-21 centuries later.

 

[saved by grace]

Correct, the evidence does not support Peter as bishop, let alone the Pope. This being said, we are indebted to the churches who copied and kept the writings of the Apostles and early church leaders while they suffered persecution.

What were the names of the "churches" who copied and kept the writings?

 

[MennoSota]

What were the names of the "churches" who copied and kept the writings?

You can check with textual critics if you want that information.

 

[MennoSota]

Interpreting from Tradition that goes back thousands of years by people who lived in the apostolic age is going to be more reliable than interpreting scripture based on the feelings of someone who lived 15-21 centuries later.

The problem, of course, is that the traditions do not always come from scripture. They come from flawed humans. Scripture should always supercede tradition when there is a conflict.

 

[saved by grace]

The problem, of course, is that the traditions do not always come from scripture. They come from flawed humans. Scripture should always supercede tradition when there is a conflict.

Yes, but when you have agreement on what a passage means from those in the East, West, North, South then it seems to me that is a solid indicator that the interpretation is one that one handed down by the apostles. John 3:5 is a great example. Everyone believed we are born again in water baptism.

 

[HankD]

Where are you getting your ideas from? Nowhere does the Catholic Church teach that no one is saved without her consent. What the Catholic Church officially believes is easy to find and you will never find anything like that.
Mediatrix and Co-Redemptix are not infallible dogmas of the Church. They are theological reflections. Those titles do not mean Mary is a Redeemer or that grace is generated by her. All it means is that she cooperated with God by giving birth to the Redeemer and throughout her life she lived for Christ. Catholic Theology is simply deeper then Protestant. Catholics think and write about the mysteries of God.

Baloney - I am a former Catholic.

Christened
First Holy Communion
Confirmation
Trained for Holy Orders by Jesuits.

The apologetic with which you speak is for the uninformed.

At least be honest as this long list of popes who believe she is the Mediatrix of all Graces, the coRedemptrix with Christ and the Advocate of Humanity.

If you are Catholic are you ashamed of her exaltation by the Church of Rome?
"behold your mother".

Not confirmed ex cathedra but it is a viable teaching of the Church, accepted dogma and Catholics are encouraged to write to Pope Francis to pronounce and exalt the 5th Marian Dogma as Mary the Mediatrix of All Graces, coRedemptrix of the World and the Advocate of Humanity.

Lest there be any doubt;
Mary Mediatrix of All Graces, Part II | Fifth Marian Dogma

Douay-Rheimes:
Timothy 2:5 For there is one God: and one mediator of God and men, the man Christ Jesus:

HankD

 

[MennoSota]

Yes, but when you have agreement on what a passage means from those in the East, West, North, South then it seems to me that is a solid indicator that the interpretation is one that one handed down by the apostles. John 3:5 is a great example. Everyone believed we are born again in water baptism.

Correct, which is why I say that not all that the Roman church teaches is false.
However, when there is conflict between scripture and tradition...scripture takes precedence. The Roman church says that tradition takes precedence over scripture.

 

[Adonia]

The problem, of course, is that the traditions do not always come from scripture. They come from flawed humans. Scripture should always supercede tradition when there is a conflict.

The problem is, whose interpretation of the Scriptures should be followed when trying to determine the validity of the traditions via the Scriptures?

 

[MennoSota]

The problem is there was no Christian Scriptures when the Apostles were handing down the traditions to the various churches. Were the Apostles wrong?

The Apostles didn't hand down traditions. They witnessed about Christ crucified and risen.
They wrote to people to explain this by inspiration of the Spirit of God. (2 Timothy 3:16)
When God speaks it is true and good. When the church of Rome speaks it is not God speaking. The church of Rome is subservient to God's word and must reform itself to be like Christ. It cannot continue to exalt traditions that have no biblical support as more important than the Bible.
Sola Scriptura

 

[Bro. James]

The Apostles didn't hand down traditions. They witnessed about Christ crucified and risen.
They wrote to people to explain this by inspiration of the Spirit of God. (2 Timothy 3:16)
When God speaks it is true and good. When the church of Rome speaks it is not God speaking. The church of Rome is subservient to God's word and must reform itself to be like Christ. It cannot continue to exalt traditions that have no biblical support as more important than the Bible.
Sola Scriptura

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The holy see has reformed on many occasions. The problem is: apostasy reformed is still reformed apostasy.

The remnant of God in every generation have not apostasized. Jesus keeps them through the gates of hell--as promised.

Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

Bro. James

 

[MennoSota]

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The holy see has reformed on many occasions. The problem is: apostasy reformed is still reformed apostasy.

The remnant of God in every generation have not apostasized. Jesus keeps them through the gates of hell--as promised.

Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

Bro. James

The leaders of the Roman church are apostate. They do not follow God's word simply because they honor their traditions over God's word. This is the same issue that Yeshua, Jesus, dealt with when addressing the leaders of the temple and the priests. Their concern was the external shell rather than the heart. Like Caiaphas in Jesus day, so is the Pope and his council. They lead the church of Rome toward hell.

There is a remnant in the Roman church whom God has redeemed despite the heresy of the leaders. Indeed, God's chosen will never be lost by God.

 

[Adonia]

The weary old theory that Christianity is just paganism warmed up always circulates around this time of year.

Armchair atheists like to point out the similarity between the word “Easter” and the Near Eastern goddess “Ishtar”. The problem is, the myth of Ishtar had nothing to do with resurrection from the dead. She was the goddess of fertility, and went down into the underworld, but that’s about the extent of the similarity between the myth of Ishtar and the story of Jesus Christ. From Wikipedia, here is the story of Ishtar. See how similar it feels to the gospel account of Jesus’ death and resurrection:

One of the most famous myths[6] about Ishtar describes her descent to the underworld. In this myth, Ishtar approaches the gates of the underworld and demands that the gatekeeper open them:

If thou openest not the gate to let me enter,
I will break the door, I will wrench the lock,
I will smash the door-posts, I will force the doors.
I will bring up the dead to eat the living.
And the dead will outnumber the living.

The gatekeeper hurried to tell Ereshkigal, the Queen of the Underworld. Ereshkigal told the gatekeeper to let Ishtar enter, but “according to the ancient decree”.

The gatekeeper let Ishtar into the underworld, opening one gate at a time. At each gate, Ishtar had to shed one article of clothing. When she finally passed the seventh gate, she was naked. In a rage, Ishtar threw herself at Ereshkigal, but Ereshkigal ordered her servant Namtar to imprison Ishtar and unleash sixty diseases against her.

After Ishtar descended to the underworld, all sexual activity ceased on earth. The god Papsukal reported the situation to Ea, the king of the gods. Ea created an intersex being called Asu-shu-namir and sent them to Ereshkigal, telling them to invoke “the name of the great gods” against her and to ask for the bag containing the waters of life. Ereshkigal was enraged when she heard Asu-shu-namir’s demand, but she had to give them the water of life. Asu-shu-namir sprinkled Ishtar with this water, reviving her. Then, Ishtar passed back through the seven gates, getting one article of clothing back at each gate, and was fully clothed as she exited the last gate.

Most ludicrous is the supposition that because the word “Ishtar” sounds like “Easter” they must be linked.

In fact “Ishtar” is of Akkadian origin and Easter comes from Anglo Saxon. Thinking they are linked is kind of like saying “Elvis” must be linked to the resurrection because it is an anagram of “Lives”.

Early Christians didn't hi-jack pagan myths and lay a heavy layer of mythology over the simple Jesus story. Do a little more research before posting falsehood.

It's not that Christianity is just warmed up paganism, it is that Christianity supplanted paganism in one of the most thorough ways possible - by taking over all their festivals, holidays, stories etc. Jesus is the true God come to earth and it was all according to plan.

 

[Adonia]

Lies again. I don't support Trinity but the rest I do. Have said so many times. Don't lie false accuser.

A belief in the Trinitarian Godhead is the most basic belief of Christianity. If you do not believe that teaching then you are not a Christian - it is that simple.

 

[Yeshua1]

A belief in the Trinitarian Godhead is the most basic belief of Christianity. If you do not believe that teaching then you are not a Christian - it is that simple.

To deny that Jesus is God is spirit of antichrist!

 

[saved by grace]

Baloney - I am a former Catholic.

Christened
First Holy Communion
Confirmation
Trained for Holy Orders by Jesuits.

The apologetic with which you speak is for the uninformed.

At least be honest as this long list of popes who believe she is the Mediatrix of all Graces, the coRedemptrix with Christ and the Advocate of Humanity.

If you are Catholic are you ashamed of her exaltation by the Church of Rome?
"behold your mother".

Not confirmed ex cathedra but it is a viable teaching of the Church, accepted dogma and Catholics are encouraged to write to Pope Francis to pronounce and exalt the 5th Marian Dogma as Mary the Mediatrix of All Graces, coRedemptrix of the World and the Advocate of Humanity.

Lest there be any doubt;
Mary Mediatrix of All Graces, Part II | Fifth Marian Dogma

Douay-Rheimes:
Timothy 2:5 For there is one God: and one mediator of God and men, the man Christ Jesus:

HankD

You need to be honest and explain what those titles actually mean and not what you want them to mean. You said that the Catholic church teaches that no one is saved without Mary's consent. Please provide a quote from the Catholic Catechism that says that.

 

[saved by grace]

Correct, which is why I say that not all that the Roman church teaches is false.
However, when there is conflict between scripture and tradition...scripture takes precedence. The Roman church says that tradition takes precedence over scripture.

Can you provide a quote from the Catechism that says tradition take precedence over scripture? I can't find it.
# 82 says..............."Both Scripture and Tradition must be accepted and honored with equal sentiments of devotion and reverence."

 

[saved by grace]

The Apostles didn't hand down traditions. They witnessed about Christ crucified and risen.
They wrote to people to explain this by inspiration of the Spirit of God. (2 Timothy 3:16)
When God speaks it is true and good. When the church of Rome speaks it is not God speaking. The church of Rome is subservient to God's word and must reform itself to be like Christ. It cannot continue to exalt traditions that have no biblical support as more important than the Bible.
Sola Scriptura

What is your evidence that the apostles did not hand down traditions?

 

[MennoSota]

What is your evidence that the apostles did not hand down traditions?

You are asking us to argue from silence.
What we know is that there are writings in the canon of the New Testament that are ascribed to the Apostles or their compatriots. There is no evidence of traditions beyond praying together, baptism and remembering the Lord's Supper. The church at Rome has added layer upon layer upon layer that has no biblical source.
Example: Nowhere in the Bible can you find baptism of infants for the purpose of salvation. Yet, the church at Rome practices this tradition and teaches that infants are saved by the ceremony.