Christianity and Paganism - What is the Truth?

[rsr]

If I am not mistaken, the Eastern Orthodox and the Western (Roman) Rite were in accord until the split sometime in the 1000's. Not sure about the Coptic's though.

The East-West split technically can be dated to 1054 after the papal legate excommunicated the patriarch of Constantinople and the patriarch excommunicated the pope. That is something of an artificial date, though, because Constantinople (and the other Eastern churches) had been drifting apart for centuries.

The Coptic Church (the patriarchy of Alexandria) separated after the Council of Chalcedon, the result of disagreements on the Chalecedonian formulation and the authority of the patriarch of Constantinople (the Alexandrian church considered it was second in prominence to Rome, not Constantinople, and the Coptic patriarch had gone so far as to excommunicate the patriarch of Constantinople).

 

[HankD]

Come out of her (paganism, disobedience) to a life of obedience to the Father and not under man-made religion.

The churches are not the answer, they're the trap. They teach you to disobey the Father and obey their "works of the law" (their words). By which no man shall be justified.

Start keeping the sabbath to honor the Creator -- no manner of work done.

Start eating kosher so you are not as ephraim was prophesied to be and forget who he was.

Be the prodigal son and repent and go back to the Father humbly (no spitting) and ask to be joined back to Him in covenant.

Obey every word that comes out of the Father's mouth that is directed at you so that you may live. (Deu 32:47, Matt 19:17.

RE: The "Hebrew Roots" movement.

As Jesus said almost 2000 years ago when people boasted of keeping the law:

"none of you keepeth the law".

We can't. There are 613 commandments (Mitzvouth - counting the 10 "commandments").

In AD 70 Titus came and destroyed the Temple and the priestly families in Jerusalem.
The temple and the priesthood are necessary for about 200 of the commandments.

The Hebrew Roots people are for the most part deceivers and will not tell you that they do not accept the Trinity or the deity of Jesus Christ. Jason1 is an honest man and has explained his belief.

They do not teach that one infraction of the law brings death or excommunication (eternal separation from YHWH-Elohim).

Deuteronomy 27:26 Cursed be he that confirmeth not all the words of this law to do them. And all the people shall say, Amen.

They do not accept the foundational rite of the acceptance teaching of the Torah: Circumcision.
They make excuses for not practicing every jot and tittle of the Torah just like those whom they condemn.

They say "keep what you can".

God requires absolute obedience to every jot and tittle of the law.

God Himself allowed for the dissolution of the obedience to every jot and title of the Torah by destroying the ability for it to be kept in the proscribed manner in AD70.

They don't require circumcision.

Leviticus 12:1 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
2 Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, If a woman have conceived seed, and born a man child: then she shall be unclean seven days; according to the days of the separation for her infirmity shall she be unclean.
3 And in the eighth day the flesh of his foreskin shall be circumcised.

Go ahead and try to keep what you can - every jot and tittle as Jesus required

Then when you fail - FLEE TO HIM!.

John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

HankD

 

[Yeshua1]

The charge has been made here that the Latin Rite of Christianity is somehow part and parcel of paganism. Why single out the Catholic faith tradition out when all of Christianity could also be seen as likewise guilty of the same charge?

Where did it start? Let us go back 3500 years where the "god" Mitra is found in the Indian Vedic religion. Fast forward 1500 years to 1500 BCE where Mitra made it to the Near East (Assyria). This "Mitra" then evolved into "Mithra", the Persian derivative, who was a "benevolent god" and the bestower of health, wealth and food. Mithra also seems to have been looked upon as a sort of Prometheus, for the gift of fire. (Schironi, 104) His worship purified and freed the devotee from sin and disease. So what else do we know about Mithra?

• Mithra was born on December 25th of the virgin Anahita.
• The babe was wrapped in swaddling clothes, placed in a manger and attended by shepherds.
• He was considered a great traveling teacher and master.
• He had 12 companions or "disciples."
• He performed miracles.
• As the "great bull of the Sun," Mithra sacrificed himself for world peace.
• He ascended to heaven.
• Mithra was viewed as the Good Shepherd, the "Way, the Truth and the Light," the Redeemer, the Savior, the Messiah.
• Mithra is omniscient, as he "hears all, sees all, knows all: none can deceive him."
• He was identified with both the Lion and the Lamb.
• His sacred day was Sunday, "the Lord's Day," hundreds of years before the appearance of Christ.
• His religion had a eucharist or "Lord's Supper."
• Mithra "sets his marks on the foreheads of his soldiers."
• Mithraism emphasized baptism.

So we can see that while we all believe Jesus is indeed the true God, the Creator Himself incarnated on this earth, it's origins from paganism do indeed exist and they exist for all of Christianity, not just one particular Christian faith tradition.

The big problem with RCC theology is that much of it is not biblical!

 

[HankD]

The big problem with RCC theology is that much of it is not biblical!

Yeshua1 - The understatement of the year perhaps even in the history of the BB

HankD

 

[MennoSota]

There was only one dominant Church before Constantine. You see the word Catholic all over the place when you read the Church Fathers. Whether or not you think that is the same Catholic Church that exists today is a different question. The "various" groups at Nicaea were all Catholic Bishops. The Bishops who held Arianism at the Council of Nicaea were also Catholic which is why the Council was held in the first place. I think the Easter Controversy of the 2nd century shows that the Bishop of Rome had authority over every Bishop West and East. They may not have been called Popes but they had the authority.

In the period of persecution, before Constantine, each church had autonomy. The church at Antioch, being the most prominent church, often was looked at as a leader to the other churches. The church at Rome, because of its situation in the capital of the Roman Empire eventually took the dominant lead, but prior to Constantine the churches were equitable. The bishop of Rome had no more or less authority than any other bishop in any other church. The usurping of power over the other churches was a political move of the Roman Empire, not a spiritual move of the churches as a whole. This is why some churches ultimately split off and wanted no part of the Roman church. As the Roman church began to add more and more heresy under the guise of tradition, more and more people called for reform. However, the merger of the church with the state resulted in death to those who opposed the political juxtaposition that happened in the church at Rome.

 

[Jason1]

RE: The "Hebrew Roots" movement.

Go ahead and try to keep what you can - every jot and tittle as Jesus required

Then when you fail - FLEE TO HIM!.

HankD

Yes, we have an advocate with the Father when we sin. But if we sin willfully, then fiery judgement awaits (heb 10).

Go and sin no more (keep torah)

 

[Yeshua1]

Yes, we have an advocate with the Father when we sin. But if we sin willfully, then fiery judgement awaits (heb 10).

Go and sin no more (keep torah)

When is ANY sin not done willfully though?

 

[MennoSota]

Yes, we have an advocate with the Father when we sin. But if we sin willfully, then fiery judgement awaits (heb 10).

Go and sin no more (keep torah)

You have fiery judgment awaiting you, Jason. May God give life to your dead spirit.

 

[HankD]

Yes, we have an advocate with the Father when we sin. But if we sin willfully, then fiery judgement awaits (heb 10).

Go and sin no more (keep torah)

4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:

HankD

 

[Yeshua1]

You have fiery judgment awaiting you, Jason. May God give life to your dead spirit.

IF my salvation was standing upon being in a sinless perfection state, I would be feeling the fires of hell right now!

 

[HankD]

RE:The Hebrew Roots Movement (The HRM)

Not only is this movement non-Trinitarian and denies the deity of Christ they pretend to be "keepers" of Torah but do not universally teach the rite of circumcision the very first requirement of Torah (first 5 books of the Bible).

Genesis 17
10 This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised.
11 And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you.
12 And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed. {he that is eight...: Heb. a son of eight days}
13 He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.
14 And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant.

Leviticus 12:1 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
2 Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, If a woman have conceived seed, and born a man child: then she shall be unclean seven days; according to the days of the separation for her infirmity shall she be unclean.
3 And in the eighth day the flesh of his foreskin shall be circumcised.

Exodus 12:48 And when a stranger shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the passover to the LORD, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as one that is born in the land: for no uncircumcised person shall eat thereof.

They teach that "we should walk as Jesus walked"

Luke 2:21 And when eight days were accomplished for the circumcising of the child, his name was called JESUS, which was so named of the angel before he was conceived in the womb.

John 7:23 If a man on the sabbath day receive circumcision, that the law of Moses should not be broken; are ye angry at me, because I have made a man every whit whole on the sabbath day?

They distort the word of God and make God a liar by doing violence to Acts 15.

Acts 15:1 And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.
...
5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.
6 And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter.
...
22 Then pleased it the apostles and elders, with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; namely, Judas surnamed Barsabas, and Silas, chief men among the brethren:
23 And they wrote letters by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia:
24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:

Read the entire chapter yourselves brethren and then decide for yourselves.

These teachers of the HRM are the judaizers of old in sheep's clothing.

HankD

 

[MennoSota]

IF my salvation was standing upon being in a sinless perfection state, I would be feeling the fires of hell right now!

Indeed. All humans willfully sin against God on a daily basis. All hope is lost.

 

[Jason1]

Indeed. All humans willfully sin against God on a daily basis. All hope is lost.

This is totally not true. Willful sin is done purposely and in defiance. Which commands do you go to intentionally break and commit a high handed sin? Why would you hate the Creator in such a manor?

 

[Christine Baker]

Yes, we have an advocate with the Father when we sin. But if we sin willfully, then fiery judgement awaits (heb 10).

Go and sin no more (keep torah)

Dear Jason,

It really doesn't say that. It all points to Jesus, it all says, "Come to Me". It says come as little children. It also says if anyone thinks he knows anything, he knows nothing as he ought. Please hear us, dear soul?

 

[Jason1]

Dear Jason,

It really doesn't say that. It all points to Jesus, it all says, "Come to Me". It says come as little children. It also says if anyone thinks he knows anything, he knows nothing as he ought. Please hear us, dear soul?

Read your scriptures:

1Jn_2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

Heb 10:26 For if we sin purposely after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a slaughter offering for sins,
Heb 10:27 but some fearsome anticipation of judgment, and a fierce fire which is about to consume the opponents.

 

[saved by grace]

The big problem with RCC theology is that much of it is not biblical!

Why would you say it is not biblical? Oneness Pentecostals, Mormons and Jehovah Witnesses say the same thing about the Trinity. Just because there is not a full blown theological discussion in the Bible doesn't mean the concept isn't there or the seed of the teaching isn't there. Scripture itself tells us that the Word of God is not limited to what is written. The oral preaching handed down is also the Word of God.

 

[saved by grace]

Yeshua1 - The understatement of the year perhaps even in the history of the BB

HankD

Why would you agree with his statement? Oneness Pentecostals, Mormons and Jehovah Witnesses say the same thing about the Trinity. Just because there is not a full blown theological discussion in the Bible doesn't mean the concept isn't there or the seed of the teaching isn't there. Scripture itself tells us that the Word of God is not limited to what is written. The oral preaching handed down is also the Word of God.

 

[saved by grace]

In the period of persecution, before Constantine, each church had autonomy. The church at Antioch, being the most prominent church, often was looked at as a leader to the other churches. The church at Rome, because of its situation in the capital of the Roman Empire eventually took the dominant lead, but prior to Constantine the churches were equitable. The bishop of Rome had no more or less authority than any other bishop in any other church. The usurping of power over the other churches was a political move of the Roman Empire, not a spiritual move of the churches as a whole. This is why some churches ultimately split off and wanted no part of the Roman church. As the Roman church began to add more and more heresy under the guise of tradition, more and more people called for reform. However, the merger of the church with the state resulted in death to those who opposed the political juxtaposition that happened in the church at Rome.

The Church at Antioch no longer exists so obviously it wasn't that prominent. I don't see how you can say that the bishop of Rome had no more authority than any other bishop. In 155 and 190 the bishop of Rome threatened to excommunicate any bishop in the world who would not celebrate Easter on a Sunday. Irenaeus pleaded with Victor not to excommunicate for the sake of unity. No one said Victor did not have the authority to excommunicate.

You said some Churches split off of the "Roman Church". Like whom? What did they believe that the "Roman Church did not believe other than the supremacy of the bishop of Rome?

 

[Yeshua1]

Read your scriptures:

1Jn_2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

Heb 10:26 For if we sin purposely after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a slaughter offering for sins,
Heb 10:27 but some fearsome anticipation of judgment, and a fierce fire which is about to consume the opponents.

That refers to the Jewish converts to Christ, who were tempted to go back to the temple and animal sacrifdies to save them. His point is that Jesus is the final and only sacrifice acceptable to god, so leaving Him is damning!

 

[Yeshua1]

The Church at Antioch no longer exists so obviously it wasn't that prominent. I don't see how you can say that the bishop of Rome had no more authority than any other bishop. In 155 and 190 the bishop of Rome threatened to excommunicate any bishop in the world who would not celebrate Easter on a Sunday. Irenaeus pleaded with Victor not to excommunicate for the sake of unity. No one said Victor did not have the authority to excommunicate.

You said some Churches split off of the "Roman Church". Like whom? What did they believe that the "Roman Church did not believe other than the supremacy of the bishop of Rome?

There is NO Bibical or historical eveidence that Peter was Pope, and the papacy is a fiction created by the RCC as mainly a way to maintain political power in times of the Kings of Europe!