Christianity and Paganism - What is the Truth?

[HankD]

Why would you agree with his statement? Oneness Pentecostals, Mormons and Jehovah Witnesses say the same thing about the Trinity. Just because there is not a full blown theological discussion in the Bible doesn't mean the concept isn't there or the seed of the teaching isn't there. Scripture itself tells us that the Word of God is not limited to what is written. The oral preaching handed down is also the Word of God.

Hmm where can we start.

The RCC teaches that Mary (Jesus mother) is the Mediatrix of all graces, Co-Redemptrix with Christ and that no one can be saved without her consent:

Now I love Mary the mother of Jesus as I love all the saints but this goes to far:

We have salvation by Mary's consent and by her faith but that is not to say that God could not have brought about salvation by other means.

Mary Mediatrix of All Grace

Scripture(s) please.

HankD

 

[MennoSota]

This is totally not true. Willful sin is done purposely and in defiance. Which commands do you go to intentionally break and commit a high handed sin? Why would you hate the Creator in such a manor?

That is what sin is. It is purposeful. You and I daily, purposefully, sin and fall short of YHWH's standard. We are dead because we miss the mark. We need someone who can make us alive. Only the grace, which comes from Yeshua, YHWH himself, can save us and cause us to hit the mark.
God's grace has made me alive and has carried me over to hit the mark. The law brings your death like the grim reaper. It is sad that you prefer death rather than life, Jason. I wish Yeshua would choose to make you alive. That is his choice to make.

 

[MennoSota]

The Church at Antioch no longer exists so obviously it wasn't that prominent. I don't see how you can say that the bishop of Rome had no more authority than any other bishop. In 155 and 190 the bishop of Rome threatened to excommunicate any bishop in the world who would not celebrate Easter on a Sunday. Irenaeus pleaded with Victor not to excommunicate for the sake of unity. No one said Victor did not have the authority to excommunicate.

You said some Churches split off of the "Roman Church". Like whom? What did they believe that the "Roman Church did not believe other than the supremacy of the bishop of Rome?

Do you realize you are making my point about the political nature of Rome in relation to mistreating others?

There are many Christians in Lebanon today so your simple comment about Antioch is of little concern. You also don't find a church in Philadelphia or Sardis, but that doesn't mean they were not important.

The Orthodox church, which traces it's roots to Antioch, left Rome, Coptic left Rome, Lutherans, those who followed various Reformers all left Rome because Rome worshipped its traditions above Yeshua. Like the Pharisees and Saducees, so Rome loved its ceremonies and political power more than it loved Yeshua. There is a remnant in the Church at Rome who have been made alive by Yeshua's grace, but many are dead in their trespasses and sins while they cling to ceremonies and tradition as their savior.

 

[Jason1]

That is what sin is. It is purposeful. You and I daily, purposefully, sin and fall short of YHWH's standard. We are dead because we miss the mark. We need someone who can make us alive. Only the grace, which comes from Yeshua, YHWH himself, can save us and cause us to hit the mark.
God's grace has made me alive and has carried me over to hit the mark. The law brings your death like the grim reaper. It is sad that you prefer death rather than life, Jason. I wish Yeshua would choose to make you alive. That is his choice to make.

What is the sin offering for:

Lev 4:2 “Speak to the children of Yisra’ĕl, saying, ‘When a being sins by mistake against any of the commands of יהוה, which are not to be done, and shall do any of them:

Lev 4:13 ‘And if the entire congregation of Yisra’ĕl strays by mistake, and the matter has been hidden from the eyes of the assembly, and they have done against any of the commands of יהוה, which are not to be done, and shall be guilty,

What happens to willful sin:

Num_15:30 ‘But the being who does whatever defiantly, whether he is native or a stranger, he reviles יהוה, and that being shall be cut off from among his people.

Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Set-apart Spirit,
Heb 6:5 and have tasted the good Word of Elohim and the powers of the age to come,
Heb 6:6 and fall away, to renew them again to repentance – having impaled for themselves the Son of Elohim again, and put Him to open shame

Heb 10:26 For if we sin purposely after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a slaughter offering for sins,

This is why we must follow torah, so we don't revile YHVH and we show our love to him by obedience. If we sin willfully, we don't appreciate the sacrifice of the Son to restore us back to covenant with the Father. We would be breaking the terms all over again. REPENT

 

[HankD]

That is what sin is. It is purposeful. You and I daily, purposefully, sin and fall short of YHWH's standard. We are dead because we miss the mark. We need someone who can make us alive. Only the grace, which comes from Yeshua, YHWH himself, can save us and cause us to hit the mark.
God's grace has made me alive and has carried me over to hit the mark. The law brings your death like the grim reaper. It is sad that you prefer death rather than life, Jason. I wish Yeshua would choose to make you alive. That is his choice to make.

Ask and you shall receive Jason.

HankD

 

[MennoSota]

There is NO Bibical or historical eveidence that Peter was Pope, and the papacy is a fiction created by the RCC as mainly a way to maintain political power in times of the Kings of Europe!

The Bishop of Rome usurped the pagan title given to the Ceasar and took it for himself. He called himself "Pontifex maximus." It was a political move to gain power in the government. We in the US should learn from such an action that we should never turn from trusting Yeshua to trusting politics. Christians trusting in the Republican party should beware.

 

[HankD]

What is the sin offering for:


Heb 10:26 For if we sin purposely after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a slaughter offering for sins

This refers to the animal sacrifice, the blood of bulls and goats. The blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from ALL sin, past, present and future.

HankD

 

[HankD]

The Bishop of Rome usurped the pagan title given to the Ceasar and took it for himself. He called himself "Pontifex maximus." It was a political move to gain power in the government. We in the US should learn from such an action that we should never turn from trusting Yeshua to trusting politics. Christians trusting in the Republican party should beware.

Or ANY political Party...

HankD

 

[MennoSota]

What is the sin offering for:

Lev 4:2 “Speak to the children of Yisra’ĕl, saying, ‘When a being sins by mistake against any of the commands of יהוה, which are not to be done, and shall do any of them:

Lev 4:13 ‘And if the entire congregation of Yisra’ĕl strays by mistake, and the matter has been hidden from the eyes of the assembly, and they have done against any of the commands of יהוה, which are not to be done, and shall be guilty,

What happens to willful sin:

Num_15:30 ‘But the being who does whatever defiantly, whether he is native or a stranger, he reviles יהוה, and that being shall be cut off from among his people.

Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Set-apart Spirit,
Heb 6:5 and have tasted the good Word of Elohim and the powers of the age to come,
Heb 6:6 and fall away, to renew them again to repentance – having impaled for themselves the Son of Elohim again, and put Him to open shame

Heb 10:26 For if we sin purposely after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a slaughter offering for sins,

This is why we must follow torah, so we don't revile YHVH and we show our love to him by obedience. If we sin willfully, we don't appreciate the sacrifice of the Son to restore us back to covenant with the Father. We would be breaking the terms all over again. REPENT

The sin offering is Yeshua, YHWH himself, atoning for my sins on the cross and proving my pardon by raising again.

You desire chains, Jason. It is all you have ever known. This makes me sad.

 

[Jason1]

The sin offering is Yeshua, YHWH himself, atoning for my sins on the cross and proving my pardon by raising again.

You desire chains, Jason. It is all you have ever known. This makes me sad.

Ok, continue trying not to understand. It is prophesied it would happen.

 

[MennoSota]

Ok, continue trying not to understand. It is prophesied it would happen.

I understand very clearly. I have been made alive by God's amazing grace. Oh that you could understand. Perhaps some day.

 

[HankD]

Ok, continue trying not to understand. It is prophesied it would happen.

John 5:45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust.

HankD

 

[Jason1]

John 5:45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust.

HankD

LoL Hank, keep on going:

Joh 5:47 “But if you do not believe his writings, how shall you believe My words?”

 

[MennoSota]

LoL Hank, keep on going:

Joh 5:47 “But if you do not believe his writings, how shall you believe My words?”

Jason, you don't believe. Yeshua, YHWH himself, tells you that He is YHWH, yet you deny him.

 

[rsr]

The church in Antioch was considered the primary church, but the church in Rome had political power. Basically the church at Rome took the lead and grew strong, not by spiritual might, but by political alliance to the Roman Empire.

It depends on the era. The Jerusalem church was obviously the first mother church, as proved in Acts. Of course, that influence waned after the Jewish revolts.

Antioch was well-thought of, but Rome (as mentioned) was the seat of power of the Empire (as well as beneficiary of the tradition that Peter was the first bishop of Rome) and Alexandria was probably the largest church in terms of population by the third century.

Thus the separation of church and state was forcibly removed within the Roman Empire, however, the Coptic church and Orthodox church were never under Roman dominion.

This is somewhat misleading. After the capital of the empire was moved to Byzantium the emperors made it a habit to meddle in the affairs of the church. This was true much more in the East than the West. The bishop of Rome was, by the end of the fourth century, in a backwater of the empire. This allowed the bishop to assume civil jurisdiction that would be unheard of in the more prosperous East. Partly this was a result of aggrandizement of the bishops of Rome and partly a practical necessity because civil government was disintegrating.

The real alliance of church and state was realized in the East, where the emperor exercised effective control by the fifth century. In the West the Roman church more or less declined to accede to civil domination and insisted that it instead was the repository of all lawful government, a claim that it only partly realized and was often challenged.

So it is true that the Eastern Orthodox church for centuries was far more under the domination of the state than was true in the West, where civil authorities often paid lip service to Rome in hopes of accruing loyalty from the faithful and sometimes made war on the bishop of Rome, even moving the see to France.

 

[Jason1]

Jason, you don't believe. Yeshua, YHWH himself, tells you that He is YHWH, yet you deny him.

You keep making yourself a liar. Why do you make stuff up and try to deceive people? Are you one of the birds of the sky who devour the seed of the word as it is spread?

 

[rsr]

The Bishop of Rome usurped the pagan title given to the Ceasar and took it for himself. He called himself "Pontifex maximus." It was a political move to gain power in the government.

Technically, the bishop of Rome has never officially styled himself Pontifex Maximus. The term has been used on coins and inscriptions, but it it not a part of his official title. I suspect that the term was adopted during the Renaissance as a nod to a greater dissemination of classical learning.

We in the US should learn from such an action that we should never turn from trusting Yeshua to trusting politics.

I've made that point for years and have usually been abused for making it. Perhaps I put it indelicately in that I argued that it made Christians just another interest group on the level of Iowa corn farmers and Texas oilment.

 

[MennoSota]

You keep making yourself a liar. Why do you make stuff up and try to deceive people? Are you one of the birds of the sky who devour the seed of the word as it is spread?

No lies. Each Gospel records Yeshua claiming that he is YHWH himself.

Yeshua will say he never knew you, Jason. This is a sad fact.

 

[rsr]

The Orthodox church, which traces it's roots to Antioch, left Rome, Coptic left Rome ...

You seem to think that the Catholics and the Orthodox are poles apart on theology. They aren't. True, they have distinctive beliefs, but at the root they agree on much more than they disagree. Luther attempted to recruit the Orthodox in the Reformation, but they realized that his theology was miles away from theirs and they were much closer to Rome.

This can be a bit dicey. Latin Rite folks are allowed to exercise the sacraments in an Orthodox church IF valid Roman sacraments are not available. On the other hand, the Orthodox refuse to provide the sacraments to Roman Catholics, upon pain of excommunication.

The Latin Rite church, should I wish to convert, would accept my Baptist baptism as valid. Some Orthodox would not, though the chrismation of Hank Hannegraaff in the Orthodox church would seem to indicate that a Baptist baptism would be acceptable.

 

[MennoSota]

You seem to think that the Catholics and the Orthodox are poles apart on theology. They aren't. True, they have distinctive beliefs, but at the root they agree on much more than they disagree. Luther attempted to recruit the Orthodox in the Reformation, but they realized that his theology was miles away from theirs and much closer to Rome.

I don't disagree with you, however, my point was that the claim of Rome as the indisputed interpreter of Scripture and accurate interpreter of Scripture is not true. What is true is that the Roman church uses tradition to interpret Scripture.