The sin debt owed was to God only, and the wrath of God needed to be propitiated...
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God Does Not Will Any To Be Lost, Some Men Do!
- Thread starter AndyAnsell
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I was responding to "Does Christ offer His atonement to us or to God to atone for our sins". The "offer" was to God to "propitiate" for the sins of mankind. And to the human race, for their sins so that they could come to Jesus for salvation. I did not make this clear. Thanks for pointing it out
Nope.
ὑμᾶς p72 B C P 048vid 056 0142 0156 81 88 181 322 323 326 945 1175 1241 1243 1735 1739 1877 1881 2127 2298 2344 al l592 l921 l1154 l1441 copbo arm geo WH NR CEI Riv TILC Nv NM
ἡμᾶς K L 049 104 330 451 629 2492 Byz Lect slav Ps-Oecumenius Theophylact ς ND Dio
Note that single reference to "Byz." The Byzantine textform includes over 300 extant manuscripts of 2 Peter and all of them read ημας.
About 25 manuscripts read "υμας."
And over 300 read "ημας."
YOU does not fit the manuscript evidence. I don't choose a bible according to my theology. I chose my theology according to the bible.
Ah, so you think that numbers matter? I speak of antiquity and not mere numbers of very late date manuscripts. You know better, but for "theological" reasons are not accepting this fact!
Judging by your answers here, I wonder?
Good, as we all should here be doing!
Interesting , as this would indeed be a case of picking between many who were much latter, and a few that were much closer to the originals!
You do not want to impugn my integrity in the open forum. Trust me on this.
You do not want to impugn my integrity in the open forum. Trust me on this.
No, Sir, no offense intended. Sorry if this offended you! Can I ask what reading you accept for 1 Timothy 3:16, "God" or "who"?
Yes. I think numbers matter. As does every textual critic on the face of the Earth.
Even Hort, when trying to displace that "vile textus receptus" admited "A theoretical presumption indeed remains that a majority of extant documents is more likely to represent a majority of ancestral documents at each stage of transmission than vice versa." (B. F. Westcott and F. J. A. Hort, Introduction to the New Testament in the Original Greek: With Notes on Selected Readings)
I suggest a careful and prayerful reading of
New Testament Textual Criticism: The Case for Byzantine Priority by Maurice A. Robinson, available at:
Robinson, The case for Byzantine priority
Again, do not impugn my integrity in the open forum.
Read the text around the verse and ask yourself if this is a universal all or a smaller group all.
Ask yourself "To whom was Peter writing this letter, was it to the world or to those chosen by God?"
I'll give you a hint. Read the first few verses of the book and you'll recognize who Peter is writing to.
Honestly, Andy, do you never read a letter or an email in its context? Do you just pluck a sentence from a text and claim it has authoritative meaning standing alone by itself? How difficult is this for you to grasp?
I know I'm sounding condescending, but grade school readers can grasp the need for context when they interpret a passage. Why then is it so hard for you? [emoji33]
θεος.
I remember disciplining my son when he was a small child. I did not want to spank him, but I did want to discipline him in a way that best taught him right from wrong. So I spanked him. Some would say that it was not my will to discipline my son. They are wrong. Others would say that I wanted to spank my son. They are also wrong.
In what manner has God offended us that our anger toward Him for offending us needs to be appeased?
My point is very simple. IF you were to accept "ὑμᾶς", as the original reading, which textually no doubt is, what would happen? Surely this would cause problems for you with this verse?
Read my response elsewhere
The famous "no response" response.
No doubt it is not.
It would read wrongly.
None. The CT and the bibles translated from the CT are notorious for their erroneous variants. But even with the errors, they are still 99.5% correct.
To think that we puny creatures should be able to have anything owed us by almighty God...
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