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God Does Not Will Any To Be Lost, Some Men Do!

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AndyAnsell

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"The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance"

Instead of "ὑμᾶς" (you), some versions have "ἡμᾶς" (us). The former reading is found in the best textual support. The difference is important, as the latter can be taken to refer to believers only, where Peter includes himself in the "ἡμᾶς".

Either way, it could not refer to believers, or as some would argue, the "elect", as this would make nonsense of the verse. If the "elect" have been "predestined" to their salvation "before the foundation of the world", then it is pointless for Peter to write, that God does not "desire any to perish", as if He would, or could, seeing that they are already "elected" to salvation. This line of reasoning is moot.

This verse is very much like Romans 9:22, "What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?", which speaks of the unbeliever. If, as some suggest that God "predestines" some to eternal damnation in hell, then why would He "endure with much patience" with these? "κατηρτισμένα" (prepared), the Greek does not tell us who does the "preparing" here, God, or the "vessel of wrath". The language used shows that it is not God, as He bears with these, for the purpose of them being saved.

This can be seen in 2 Peter 3:9, and elsewhere, because "He is not willing that ANY should be lost". This is also clearly seen from Ezekiel 18:23, "Do I have any pleasure in the death of the wicked,” declares the Lord God, rather than that he should turn from his ways and live?", and 32, "For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone who dies,” declares the Lord God. “Therefore, repent and live.”. This indeed is the very heart of the God of the Holy Bible, Who demonstrated His immense love for the whole of mankind, when we read, "God SO LOVES the HUMAN RACE, that He sent His one and only Son, that ANYONE who believes in Him, shall not be lost, but have eternal life" (John 3:16).
 

SovereignGrace

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God does not will any to perish, yet millions, possibly billions perish. I guess man's will thwarts God's will.
 

AndyAnsell

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God does not will any to perish, yet millions, possibly billions perish. I guess man's will thwarts God's will.

God in His Sovereignty, chose to create man with a "free-will" to chose. Otherwise where the Bible says "choose this day whom you will serve", is pointless, as man does not have this capacity, according to some?
 

MennoSota

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God in His Sovereignty, chose to create man with a "free-will" to chose. Otherwise where the Bible says "choose this day whom you will serve", is pointless, as man does not have this capacity, according to some?
A free will that trumps God's will? Do you know what the term Sovereign means?

If the word "all" is universal, then the God of the universe fails to meet His own claim.

Re-read the last chapter of Joshua in its context and see what Joshua tells the people about their choice of trying to earn their own salvation. The answer from Joshua is that the people cannot do it. They cannot choose to follow God. They need a Redeemer.
 

AndyAnsell

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A free will that trumps God's will? Do you know what the term Sovereign means?

If the word "all" is universal, then the God of the universe fails to meet His own claim.

Re-read the last chapter of Joshua in its context and see what Joshua tells the people about their choice of trying to earn their own salvation. The answer from Joshua is that the people cannot do it. They cannot choose to follow God. They need a Redeemer.

Thanks, can you please explain what the passages from Ezekiel teach?
 

MennoSota

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Thanks, can you please explain what the passages from Ezekiel teach?
Sure. I have taught through Ezekiel and the context of those verses are in reference to the discipline God is carrying out on His chosen people. Ezekiel is an amazing book that the church neglects to study. Instead people with a presupposition go in and find a verse or two that fits their agenda and then demand that God is teaching their agenda. This is precisely what you are doing.
I encourage you to deeply study the book of Ezekiel. It is a book about rebels being shown justice, followed by God being gracious to those whom He wills to be gracious.
Thanks for reminding me of how awesome Ezekiel is for my life. Getting my praise on just thinking about it. God is good.
 

Yeshua1

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God in His Sovereignty, chose to create man with a "free-will" to chose. Otherwise where the Bible says "choose this day whom you will serve", is pointless, as man does not have this capacity, according to some?
There is no real free will remaining after the fall though, as all now enslavaed to sin and sin nature!
 

Yeshua1

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A free will that trumps God's will? Do you know what the term Sovereign means?

If the word "all" is universal, then the God of the universe fails to meet His own claim.

Re-read the last chapter of Joshua in its context and see what Joshua tells the people about their choice of trying to earn their own salvation. The answer from Joshua is that the people cannot do it. They cannot choose to follow God. They need a Redeemer.
The all in contex will be the ones that God chose to save!
 

AndyAnsell

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There is no real free will remaining after the fall though, as all now enslavaed to sin and sin nature!

So, you mean that when unsaved sinners commit any acts of sin, like rape, murder, theft, etc, they don't any any choice in doing this? Are these same sinners doomed to eternal damnation because God has sent them directly to hell in predestination? Why would Jesus Himself tell sinners, that "unless they repent, they will perish"? (Luke 13:1-5), words that cannot have been spoken to any of the "elect", as they cannot perish, unless you charge Jesus of making empty threats? When you say "enslaved" to sin, you could also include many "believers" who live worse lives than the unsaved! Look at the "saints" in the Church at Corinth, where they committed heinous sins AFTER they were saved. If, as you say there is no free will, then God made man as per-programmed machines, who cannot be responsible for their sinful actions, or their rejection of Jesus Christ as Saviour, as they have no say in this. Can you see the nonsense and danger there is in this thinking?
 

AndyAnsell

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Sure. I have taught through Ezekiel and the context of those verses are in reference to the discipline God is carrying out on His chosen people. Ezekiel is an amazing book that the church neglects to study. Instead people with a presupposition go in and find a verse or two that fits their agenda and then demand that God is teaching their agenda. This is precisely what you are doing.
I encourage you to deeply study the book of Ezekiel. It is a book about rebels being shown justice, followed by God being gracious to those whom He wills to be gracious.
Thanks for reminding me of how awesome Ezekiel is for my life. Getting my praise on just thinking about it. God is good.

So, by your own admission, since these wicked people in Ezekiel, that God would rather turn and live, can and will be damned by God if they do not conform to His desires, as He says that the options are "live" or "die", which cannot refer to mere physical death, which bothers no unsaved sinner, as all are going to die. the context demands spiritual death, which, as you say are "chosen people", shows that these can indeed be lost!
 

MennoSota

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So, by your own admission, since these wicked people in Ezekiel, that God would rather turn and live, can and will be damned by God if they do not conform to His desires, as He says that the options are "live" or "die", which cannot refer to mere physical death, which bothers no unsaved sinner, as all are going to die. the context demands spiritual death, which, as you say are "chosen people", shows that these can indeed be lost!
Nice try.

What does Paul say in Romans about Israel?

Andy, it is best if you read the Bible and let it teach you, rather than desperately searching for a verse, out of context, that makes your pet presupposition work.

Is God Sovereign?

If so, what does being Sovereign mean?

How does the text of scripture reveal God's Sovereignty?

If mankind's will is authorative in salvation then what authority does God have?

Andy, you seem to imagine that God is like the Queen of England. He acts as Head of State where He welcomes guests at parties, but the actual function of ruling and decision making is done by parliament. The will of the people trumps the will of the monarch.

Do you really think it works that way in God's Kingdom? Is God just a passive figurehead who is controlled by the will of those who choose Him as King? Is that the Sovereign King you have as Savior?
 

TCassidy

Late-Administator Emeritus
Administrator
So, you mean that when unsaved sinners commit any acts of sin, like rape, murder, theft, etc, they don't any any choice in doing this?
You seem terribly confused. "Free will" has nothing to do with making choices. People, all people, make choices every day. That is not "free will."

"Free will" is a denial of the sin nature and the effect of sin on a person.

The will of man is not free. It is in bondage to the law of sin and death. Only the Grace of God can free a man from the bondage of the law of sin and death.

The Old Man's will is in bondage to the law of sin and death.

The New Man's will is bound to the law of New Life in Christ.

The Old Man is not free to come to Christ on his own merits.

The New Man is not free to abandon Christ and nullify His Sacrifice.

So, again, "free will" has nothing to do with "making choices." Don't confuse the two.
 

TCassidy

Late-Administator Emeritus
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Are these same sinners doomed to eternal damnation because God has sent them directly to hell in predestination?
Double Predestination is heresy and folly. God does not predestine a sinner to hell. His sin sends him to hell. He is already lost in trespass and sin.

This idea that man is neutral and God makes him either saint of sinner is nonsense. Man is already lost in sin, by his own choice.
 

AndyAnsell

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Double Predestination is heresy and folly. God does not predestine a sinner to hell. His sin sends him to hell. He is already lost in trespass and sin.

This idea that man is neutral and God makes him either saint of sinner is nonsense. Man is already lost in sin, by his own choice.

You, like the rest who have responded here, have failed to deal with the Bible texts that I quoted at the start. WHY would God be "willing" that NONE perish, IF they cannot respond to the Gospel because He did not "elect" them? The passage in 2 Peter cannot refer to the "elect", who cannot "perish", so for Peter so say that God does not "will" this, is pointless, as He CANNOT. This argument is wasted, if it does not refer to the mockers and scoffers! The passages from Ezekiel also show that God does NOT desire the eternal death of the wicked, where again it cannot refer to the "elect", who cannot "die" spiritually, which is what these passages teach.
 

AndyAnsell

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Double Predestination is heresy and folly. God does not predestine a sinner to hell. His sin sends him to hell. He is already lost in trespass and sin.

This idea that man is neutral and God makes him either saint of sinner is nonsense. Man is already lost in sin, by his own choice.

I believe that the "master" of John Calvin's theology, Augustine taught this "heresy and folly" as you rightly put it, as were his view on the Atonement!
 

AndyAnsell

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Nice try.

What does Paul say in Romans about Israel?

Andy, it is best if you read the Bible and let it teach you, rather than desperately searching for a verse, out of context, that makes your pet presupposition work.

Is God Sovereign?

If so, what does being Sovereign mean?

How does the text of scripture reveal God's Sovereignty?

If mankind's will is authorative in salvation then what authority does God have?

Andy, you seem to imagine that God is like the Queen of England. He acts as Head of State where He welcomes guests at parties, but the actual function of ruling and decision making is done by parliament. The will of the people trumps the will of the monarch.

Do you really think it works that way in God's Kingdom? Is God just a passive figurehead who is controlled by the will of those who choose Him as King? Is that the Sovereign King you have as Savior?

Please answer what I have said on your comments on Ezekiel, and then we can move on, thanks
 

MennoSota

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Please answer what I have said on your comments on Ezekiel, and then we can move on, thanks
I already did. Read what Paul says about Israel in Romans 9. Not all Israel is Israel.

Now that this is settled, please address the questions on Sovereignty.
 

AndyAnsell

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I already did. Read what Paul says about Israel in Romans 9. Not all Israel is Israel.

Now that this is settled, please address the questions on Sovereignty.

You have not. Simply put, there is no Calvinist who can honestly deal with the passages from 2 Peter and Ezekiel, as they show that their "theology" on predestination and limited atonement are unbiblical. As I have said more than once, in either passage those referred to cannot be the "elect", as what is said of them, makes no sense whatsoever, unless they are just sinners, elect and non elect
 

MennoSota

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You have not. Simply put, there is no Calvinist who can honestly deal with the passages from 2 Peter and Ezekiel, as they show that their "theology" on predestination and limited atonement are unbiblical. As I have said more than once, in either passage those referred to cannot be the "elect", as what is said of them, makes no sense whatsoever, unless they are just sinners, elect and non elect

LOL

You realize that your premise is built upon a handful of verses ripped out of context. Or do you conveniently forget that?

Shall we deal with each of your verses within the context of the entire book and the entire Bible or are you dead set on cherry picking verses to prop up your false theology?

Let me know when you want to address God's Sovereignty. At the present moment I see you playing God and relegating the Creator to being your puppet.
 

AndyAnsell

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LOL

You realize that your premise is built upon a handful of verses ripped out of context. Or do you conveniently forget that?

Shall we deal with each of your verses within the context of the entire book and the entire Bible or are you dead set on cherry picking verses to prop up your false theology?

Let me know when you want to address God's Sovereignty. At the present moment I see you playing God and relegating the Creator to being your puppet.

typical Calvinist response. criticize those you cannot answer! you said those referred to as "wicked" who God said would DIE if they did not turn and repent, referred to God's "chosen people", whom you say are being "disciplined" in these passages. Tell me, why would God not want these to "die", and rather "live", which contextually is speaking of "spiritual" life and death? I mean, what is the point in God saying to these "elect" persons, that if they did not stop being wicked, they would DIE in eternal hell, which the passage is speaking with, if they could not go there? Why threaten something that is not even possible? If, as the passage clearly does, it speaks to the LOST WICKED, the NON-ELECT, then we have very clear Bible evidence that God WILLS these also to be saved. This is EXACTLY what 2 Peter 3:9sq is saying!
 
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