I never said it was.
Some give it more weight than others but all consider it one of the indicators. Of the nine items I posted I would put it last.
Why? We agree.
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God Does Not Will Any To Be Lost, Some Men Do!
- Thread starter AndyAnsell
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Bible versions do not constitute manuscript evidence. You do know what a manuscript is, don't you?
God is determining the destiny of the elect, its that predestination thing, but he is allowing the lost to "have their will be done"
We do not have a CT only or a Mt Only or a TR only greek text right? As we can accept and decide that one of them would be the closest and best of the originals, but none are the only text to be used?
Greek manuscript evidence for;
ἡμᾶς - codices, K, L, both of the 9th century. That's it! The number of secondary minuscule mss don't really matter much, as their parent could be from these two, which is no evidence in reality!
ὑμᾶς - Papyri Ms, P-72, 3rd century or earlier, codices, א, B, both 4th century, A, 5th cent. the principle minuscule mss, 33, 9th. Add to this the Old versions that were made from Greek manuscripts, the Old Latin, 2nd cent, Latin Vulgate 4th cent; Syriac-ph, 6th; Syriac-h, 7th; Coptic-sa, bo, from 3rd cent; Speculum, 4th cent.
You tell me now honestly, which evidence is the far stronger and older?
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This does not deal with the FACT, that Peter is addressing the "mockers and scoffers" in chapter 3 of his Second Epistle, where he tells them, that "God is not willing that they perish". This needs to be responded to, and pages later no one Calvinist can refute what I have said!
I suggest that you re-read this entire passage, and you will see, that Peter by using "YOU", in the text, is addressing those who are "mockers and scoffers", and told THEM that God does not will that they are lost!
the Scriptures do NOT, but Calvinism does. Get your facts right!
As long as you Calvinists cannot accept the FACT, that there is FREE WILL which is a God-given gift to all mankind, which allows a sinner to either accept or reject the Gospel of Jesus Christ, you will never understand!
NONE of these verses says anything about the WILL of man! Look at the words of Jesus to the unbelievers:
"But you do not have His word abiding in you, because whom He sent, Him you do not believe. You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me. But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life." (John 5:38-40). NOTE, Jesus does NOT say, "you cannot will", but that "you do not will" of your own accord!
Who is the "their"? I don't believe this heresy!
It is unfortunate, but I am not surprised you would falsify the manuscript evidence.
ἡμᾶς K L 049 104 330 451 629 2492 Byz (c300+ manuscripts) Lect (all of them) slav Ps-Oecumenius Theophylact ς ND Dio.
Wow.....no. It obvious from verse 8 that verse 9 is applied to the beloved. Theology is controlling your interpretation here.
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It is unfortunate, but I am not surprised you would falsify the manuscript evidence.
ἡμᾶς K L 049 104 330 451 629 2492 Byz (c300+ manuscripts) Lect (all of them) slav Ps-Oecumenius Theophylact ς ND Dio.
You say I accuse you of not being honest! You WRONGLY accuse me of giving false evidence! WHY don't you people READ before making silly statements? I said the evidence for "ἡμᾶς" is not stronger or older, and all the evidence that you have given amounts to nothing as what I have already shown for ὑμᾶς, is MUCH BETTER, but you cannot accept this, as your "theology" will be challenged in a way you cannot accept!
Ok, when you can understand what it says, come back... Why don't you read what I have said at the start of this thread, and then you may see better!
I have supported that view, God alone chooses individuals for salvation through faith in the truth for about 5 years. But I am glad you now agree fully with scripture. That is progress!
God is not willing to have none whom will be saved to be lost, so that is why he is waiting now! The scoffers and mickers are as the false teachers...
This is another verse where the textual evidence is quite divided, and therefore cannot be used for doctrinal purposes. Instead of "ἀπ' ἀρχῆς", "from the beginning", there is another reading, "ἀπαρχὴν", "as first-fruit", as Paul does in Romans 16:5, for the "first converts" in Achaia. Both reading have about the same Greek manuscript and ancient version support.
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