Repentence From Sins To Salvation - False And True Teachings

[Yeshua1]

Read then what God says in Jonah:

"Then God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God relented from the disaster that He had said He would bring upon them, and He did not do it." (3:10)

"works" here does not mean something "earned", but something "done", in that "they turned from their evil way", which is what "repenting" is. Too many Calvinists have corrupted the simple Gospel Message, with their "theological" rather than "Biblical" understanding, and try to force Scripture to say things that it does not. Like some will argue that "κόσμος" in John 3:16 means "elect", when it most certainly does NOT. But they will keep arguing this point because their "theology" says they must. Much like the Jehovah's Witnesses on John 1:1!

They changed after the Lord had given them new hearts , to now be able to obey Him!

 

[JamesL]

John the Baptist meant two things about repentance:

1) Change your mind (metanoia) about saving yourself and go 180 degrees to be saved of God.

2) Distinct from this, is the "fruit" of repentance. He gave instructions to various kinds of people as to what they could do to show the "change of mind."

But we are not saved by works (fruit). We are saved by faith. God's gift of repentance (see Paul) changes our thinking and opens the door to do works mentioned in Ephesians 2, after we are said to be saved by Grace though faith, as a gift. Any conditions on faith makes it not a gift but a trade.

Remember, God predestines the Saints unto salvation in eternity past. God does it all. He puts into the hearts of the elect to receive Him. Cooperating with the Holy Spirit, changes who they are. This is the "fruit."

Some will get saved by faith alone and then live for themselves. Calvin called these believers, "slothful." They will face believer's judgment at the bema seat and will be judged for what they have done (1 Corinthians 3).

Can you share with us, where do you get the idea that the fruit of repentance = works?

Who was John the Baptist talking to when he said that?

 

[Mr. Davis]

Can you share with us, where do you get the idea that the fruit of repentance = works?

Who was John the Baptist talking to when he said that?

"2) Distinct from this, is the "fruit" of repentance. He gave instructions to various kinds of people as to what they could do to show the "change of mind."

But we are not saved by works (fruit). We are saved by faith."

Again, "the various kinds of people" John was talking to, showed their repentance by doing the things he told them to do. These things they did are the works or the "fruit" of their repentance.

They did not have the Holy Spirit. Believers have the H.S. The fruit He produces in the life of a believer, occurs because the believer cooperates with Him. This fruit is not from works. It is from the H.S. (Contrast the works of the flesh in Galatians 5.)

God has prepared works for us to do (Ephesians 2). Doing them demonstrates that we are cooperating with the H.S. We are not doing the works; the H.S. is doing them through us.

Again, we are not saved by doing anything. We are saved by the faith God ordained for us to have in eternity past.

 

[Darrell C]

If you will see what Ryrie is saying, he is making a clear distinction between "repenting", which he does not believe to be necessary for salvation, and "belief" (faith), which is argues is the only thing needed to be saved. This is what Zane Hodges and others, who reject "repentance", as in "turning away from sins in true sorrow", as a pre-condition for salvation, believe, which is Biblically incorrect. I am open to being shown to be wrong from the Word.

There are some who teach that to be saved a sinner need only "change their mind" (repent) about how the viewed Jesus Christ before, and not actually "turn" from their sinful life, in true godly sorrow and accept Jesus as their personal Saviour and Lord, which they wrongly see as a "work". This is a modern day heresy!

Unfortunately the popular understanding of the Work of Christ and Salvation has become "We are saved by faith through grace."

Repentance is a result of the efforts of God, rather than a condition imposed upon the natural man, something to be met in order for him/her to be saved.

No man can repent in his natural condition, neither can one have faith in his natural condition, What is necessary to occur is that God enlighten that natural mind to the spiritual things which provide a basis for relationship between God and Man. If we consider that Christ taught that the Spirit of Truth that would come after He returned to heaven would convict the "world" of sin, righteousness, and judgment, and then apply that to our own salvation experiences, we would acknowledge that we were not saved by faith through grace, but...

...saved by grace through faith.

That is how salvation has always been bestowed upon man, a consistent basic principle that I think people get confused sometimes about.

The unregenerate man has but one hope, and that is God intervening and removing the blindness they suffer to their own condition. He can no more "turn from his sinful life" than a leopard can become a zebra. We don't "turn from a sinful life" to be saved, we are enlightened to the Gospel of Jesus Christ, and acknowledge sin (that we are sinners), righteousness (that we have none and that only Christ is righteous), and judgment (that we are headed to Hell because we are not in relationship with and to God).

And just to clarify, I am not saying that God regenerates a man and then he has faith, I am saying that God enlightens the natural man...and man responds.

And there are two responses to enlightenment, rejection (which is natural for men, no pun intended, lol), and receiving the Truth through repentance and faith.

God grants repentance unto men, and we distinguish between repentance that is effected by men (as we see in John's Baptism) and the repentance effected by God through enlightenment (which results in Christ's Baptism, with the Holy Ghost, or, in other words, salvation which is immersion into God, whereby the relationship with God lost in Adam is restored).


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

Can you share with us, where do you get the idea that the fruit of repentance = works?

Who was John the Baptist talking to when he said that?

We do see a principle taught in Scripture that basically describes good fruit from good trees, so, while men are not saved by works, we would not argue that men that are saved will be devoid of good works, as I am sure you would agree.

The distinction I think we have to make when we look at repentance is the same distinction John the Baptist made, which is his baptism is not to be equated to the Baptism Christ would effect. Those he denied baptism evidenced in their lives...they had not repented, which is another distinction, that clarifies that repentance in that context dealt with what the "comer thereunto" was doing, rather than what God would do (Christ's Baptism is a future event).

Those who came to John made public pronouncement they had repented, and this involved what they did. We have to take seriously, seeing John was a Prophet of God (and a distinct Prophet, the last of the Ages prior to the Age of Grace, him being under Law), that God expected men to turn from their sins. However, I think the primary failure we can make is to fail to understand that those who repented and were baptized of John, repented...within the capacity available to them. Meaning...they repented according to the flesh.

The difference between that and the repentance which is the result of God regenerating men is vast. Believers can repent in that manner, but this deals with our progressive state rather than our positional state (in Christ), just as we can sin and be forgiven in a temporal sense by a fellow believer, which is not to be equated with Eternal Remission of sins.


God bless.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Some will get saved by faith alone and then live for themselves.

This is not true at all.
Acts 26:20, KJV. 'But shewed first unto them at Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.'
Salvation is by grace alone through faith alone, but where there is no repentance and no fruit, there has been no saving faith and therefore no salvation 'Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not enter the kingdom of God? Be not deceived' (cf. 1 Corinthians 6:9-11). '......Of the which I tell you before, as I have told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God' (Galatians 5:21).

 

[Darrell C]

This is not true at all.
Acts 26:20, KJV. 'But shewed first unto them at Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.'
Salvation is by grace alone through faith alone, but where there is no repentance and no fruit, there has been no saving faith and therefore no salvation 'Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not enter the kingdom of God? Be not deceived' (cf. 1 Corinthians 6:9-11). '......Of the which I tell you before, as I have told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God' (Galatians 5:21).

I think you are creating an extreme to deny his statement, but the fact is that there will be those who are saved who will live for themselves. That is not the same as ascribing an unrighteous standing from an eternal perspective. We have varying "building materials" which, according to how we build, will be judged, and not all of them will stand up to judgment. We know there will be those who make shipwreck of their faith. We know there are those who will be led astray. But, we don't look at the dangers faced by Christians as non-existent, or that their failure to come into obedience to God always denies genuine salvation. Some believers will die physically, as an extreme, due to their sin.

One thing I would point out is that believers go through stages of growth, and it is not unreasonable to see babes in Christ living for themselves. And with the nature of teachings in this day, it is no wonder so many are led away to nonsense.


God bless.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

I think you are creating an extreme to deny his statement

I don't see that I am. I might have quoted Matthew 7:21-23; Mark 7:6, or a whole host of texts.

but the fact is that there will be those who are saved who will live for themselves.

I don't think you'll find there will be; at least, not for any length of time. Matthew 25:41-45.

That is not the same as ascribing an unrighteous standing from an eternal perspective. We have varying "building materials" which, according to how we build, will be judged, and not all of them will stand up to judgment.

You are alluding to 1 Corinthians 3:10-15. This is referring to doctrinal errors. So long as one's foundation is the Lord Jesus Christ (v.11), it is possible to go astray somewhat and still be saved (v.15). BUT, 'Do not be deceived.' Our God is a holy God and 'those who are Christ's have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires' (Galatians 5:24); not perfectly or completely (v.17), but genuinely.

One thing I would point out is that believers go through stages of growth, and it is not unreasonable to see babes in Christ living for themselves. And with the nature of teachings in this day, it is no wonder so many are led away to nonsense.

Indeed, but it is the responsibility of those who are more mature to warn and admonish the babes (cf. 1 Peter 2:1-3).

 

[Mr. Davis]

This is not true at all.

Acts 26:20, KJV. 'But shewed first unto them at Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.'

Salvation is by grace alone through faith alone, but where there is no repentance and no fruit, there has been no saving faith and therefore no salvation 'Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not enter the kingdom of God? Be not deceived' (cf. 1 Corinthians 6:9-11). '......Of the which I tell you before, as I have told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God' (Galatians 5:21).

Are you a Calvinist? I seriously doubt it from your remarks.

Men are saved in eternity past (Ephesians 1) and God predestines their repentance (change of mind). The fruit they bear depends on their cooperation with the Holy Spirit. Some do not cooperate and live for themselves. They will be judged at the bema seat with the consequences spelled out in 1 Corinthians 3. (This is speaking of Carnal Christians). Remember, we are not saved by behaving in a certain way or by stop behaving in a certain way.

There will be two types of believers in the Kingdom of God. Those that have endured will reign. And those that were faithless, (didn’t cooperate with the H.S.), God will yet be faithful to. Like Peter, those believers who “deny Him,” will be restored. Peter was one of the elect, and if other members of the elect fall short like he did, they will be restored also (2 Timothy 2).

The faithless will be the servants of the faithful. The “unrighteous” in 1 Corinthians 6 and Galatians 5 are the “wicked.” They are unregenerate and will not be in the Kingdom. Some of the elect will have to be washed completely from unrighteous deeds. The faithless will not want a complete washing.

BTW, you think your flesh is crucified. Paul was aware of his flesh before his conversion. But, after conversion, it really came alive (Romans 7). We will experience full and total relief from the tyranny of the flesh once we get to heaven.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Are you a Calvinist? I seriously doubt it from your remarks.

Well I always thought I was, but doubtless you know best.

Men are saved in eternity past (Ephesians 1)

You may trawl all through Ephesians 1 and you will not find that God saves men in eternity past. He chose us in eternity, 'that we should be holy and without blame before Him' (v.4) and predestined 'us to adoption as sons' (v.5) but we are not saved until we repent and trust in Christ for salvation.

and God predestines their repentance (change of mind).

Repentance unto salvation is a gift of God (Acts 11:18).

The fruit they bear depends on their cooperation with the Holy Spirit. Some do not cooperate and live for themselves. They will be judged at the bema seat with the consequences spelled out in 1 Corinthians 3. (This is speaking of Carnal Christians).

This is not so. John 15:2, 5-6. 'Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He [the Father] takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes that it may bear more fruit.......If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire and they are burned.........By this My father is glorified, that you bear much fruit; so shall you be My disciples.' So the Lord's disciples are they who bear fruit. What fruit? Galatians 5:22-23.

Remember, we are not saved by behaving in a certain way or by stop behaving in a certain way.

Indeed not! Our behaving in a certain way is the evidence that we have been saved by grace (John 14:21; 1 John 3:10 etc.).

There will be two types of believers in the Kingdom of God. Those that have endured will reign. And those that were faithless, (didn’t cooperate with the H.S.), God will yet be faithful to. Like Peter, those believers who “deny Him,” will be restored. Peter was one of the elect, and if other members of the elect fall short like he did, they will be restored also (2 Timothy 2).

There is only one type of true believer (John 8:31)- those who have seen themselves as lost sinners, repented of their sins, trusted in Christ and are following Him. If God has one of His sheep who goes astray, the Good Shepherd will find him and bring him home- that is, to the place of repentance. Those who go astray and do not return and repent give proof that they are not Christ's sheep.

The faithless will be the servants of the faithful. The “unrighteous” in 1 Corinthians 6 and Galatians 5 are the “wicked.” They are unregenerate and will not be in the Kingdom. Some of the elect will have to be washed completely from unrighteous deeds. The faithless will not want a complete washing.

This is complete nonsense; you are misunderstanding 2 Timothy 2:11-13. God will be faithful to His own righteous standards; He will not deny Himself by justifying the wicked (Proverbs 17:15).

BTW, you think your flesh is crucified.

No I don't. I have been crucified with Christ (Galatians 2:20), but there remains a remnant of sin in my flesh which I have to put to death on a daily basis (Colossians 3:5 etc.).

Paul was aware of his flesh before his conversion. But, after conversion, it really came alive (Romans 7). We will experience full and total relief from the tyranny of the flesh once we get to heaven.

The last bit's right! Praise the Lord!

 

[Mr. Davis]

Well I always thought I was, but doubtless you know best.

You espouse "Lordship salvation," which is condemned by Charles Stanley.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

You espouse "Lordship salvation," which is condemned by Charles Stanley.

I see. And Charles Stanley is the arbiter of what's Calvinism and what isn't, is he?
This would be funny except that the idea of the 'carnal Christian' is sending thousands of people to hell with a pocketful of false promises.

1 Corinthians 6:9. 'Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived!'
Yes, but I'm a carnal Christian, you see........
'Do not be deceived!'
Yes, but Charles Stanley says......'
'Do not be deceived!'
Yes, but.........
'Do not be deceived!'

 

[Martin Marprelate]

You espouse "Lordship salvation,"

I understand that I may seem to some to be preaching salvation by works or setting up some kind of sacrifice.
May I draw brothers' attention to Positional Sanctification? Christians are viewed by God as set apart for holy purposes-- we are saints! Read Romans 1:7; 1 Corinthians 1:2; Ephesians 1:1, Philippians 1:1; Colossians 1:1.
Furthermore all God's action both in predestination and in salvation are for our holiness and sanctification. Read Ephesians 1:4; Ephesians 5:25-26; Colossians 1:21-22; 1 Peter 2:24; Titus 2:14.
Thirdly, God is deeply involved in our practical holiness or progressive sanctification. Read Philippians 1:6; Philippians 2:12-13; 1 Thessalonians 5:23; 2 Peter 1:3-4. Therefore, we look away from the world and look unto Jesus (Hebrews12:1-3), being assured that 'Sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law, but under grace' (Romans 6:14).

[Please read those texts I have given; it only takes a click on the links]

But if someone has no desire for holiness-- if he does not love his Saviour enough to want to keep His commandments (John 14:15)-- if he says in his heart, 'We will not have this Man to reign over us' (Luke 19:14), what possible reason is there to suppose that God is saving him?

 

[Mr. Davis]

Please click on expand. Somehow my comments got intermingled with the previous poster's.

I understand that I may seem to some to be preaching salvation by works or setting up some kind of sacrifice.
May I draw brothers' attention to Positional Sanctification?

All of our unrighteousness has been imputed to Christ. And his righteousness has been imputed to us. He died for all of my sins past, present, and future, otherwise He would have to die many times (See Hebrews).

Kindly speak about the following:


Why Christians Make Miserable Addicts

By Heather Kopp


At a recent recovery meeting, I met a woman who wore a chunky cross necklace and clasped her hands nervously in her lap. Clearly a newcomer, her voice trembled as she gave a little speech I recognized.

“I’m a Christian, actually,” she said. “I mean, I have a relationship with God and have for a long time. But for some reason, that hasn’t kept me from getting addicted to food and alcohol. I don’t know why. I can’t believe I’m here.”

My heart went out to her. And I wondered for the umpteenth time if we Christians don’t make the most miserable of addicts.

I should know. For more than twelve years, I was a Christian drunk living a double life. By day I wrote books about parenting and prayer, and by night I drank myself blotto from a stash in my closet.

I knew blotto was a sin, of course. Coming from an evangelical Christian background, I was familiar with the Bible verse, “Do not be drunk with wine, but be filled with the Holy Spirit.”

Alcoholism, I assumed, was simply the sin of drunkenness repeated over and over again. So with “do not be drunk” as my standard, I aimed not to drink to excess. When I did, I begged God for forgiveness. And then I asked God to help me not do it again.

But I always did. As the cycle of my over-drinking, repentance, trying harder, and over-drinking again became a pattern, I often despaired. Didn’t I love God enough to quit? Didn’t God love me enough to deliver me?

Convinced that alcoholism was a sin issue only, it never occurred to me that my response to alcohol — I got thirstier the more I drank — could be abnormal or indicate a physiological condition.

And I’m not alone. Thousands, if not millions, of us Christians have made the same mistake and been caught in the vicious cycle of addiction.

Embarrassed by our lack of self-discipline, we pull up our spiritual bootstraps and try harder. We pray and repent until we’re blue in the face. When our efforts continue to fail us, we feel ever more guilty and ashamed.

And confused, too. As new creations in Christ, we’re supposed to have been set free from the power of sin, right? So to even admit that we have become addicted feels like a betrayal of Christ’s work on the cross.

Or worse, living proof that it didn’t work.

No wonder most of us go to great lengths to hide our problem. There’s our reputation to protect, after all. And God’s. Ironically, our desire to maintain a good witness gradually turns us into champion sneaks, liars, and hypocrites.

This is how once joyful Christians become jaded, miserable ones.

One day in 2007 after I finally got into treatment, I heard an addictions counselor say, “We’re not bad people getting good, we’re sick people getting well.”

My hand shot up. “But we can’t become alcoholic unless we drink,” I objected. “So isn’t calling it a sickness or a disease just an excuse?”

The counselor nodded and smiled. He’d met my kind before. “Okay,” he said, “but since lung cancer can be caused by cigarettes, and diabetes can be caused by overeating, does that mean they’re not progressive, often fatal diseases?”

I didn’t have a comeback. And I had to admit, treating my alcoholism solely as a moral failure hadn’t worked. Here I was, after all.

Today, instead of seeing addiction as either sin or sickness, I believe it involves both. When we battle obsessions, we make choices that are fair to call sin. But when these behaviors progress to the point of addiction, we’re dealing with a condition that includes very real physical and psychological components.

How else but sick in body, mind, and spirit could you describe a mother who drinks so much she can’t recall anything her kids told her the night before? Who, if she hasn’t had enough alcohol, can’t get her contacts in her eyes because her hands shake too much? Who, though she imagines she would die for her husband and children, can’t quit drinking for them?

I was that woman.

I’m the last one to get hung up on semantics. But I think labels like “sin” and “sickness” matter, especially for those in the faith community. Because how we define a problem largely determines how or if we reach for a solution.

I’m not saying that prayer and repentance are never sufficient, or that God can’t miraculously deliver an alcoholic to permanent sobriety. But taken alone, the label—sin—can keep people from reaching out for the kind of help they need.

This is part of why I wrote Sober Mercies. I wish someone had sat me down and given me the good news: “You’re not a uniquely horrible person, Heather. You’re mentally, spiritually, and physically sick...and while there is no cure, there is a solution.”

Today, I know I suffer from a treatable disease called alcoholism. Because I’m involved in an ongoing program of recovery, I know there is hope for me.

Note: Some Churches include “Celebrate Recovery” as one of their ministries. It is Christ-centered and helps many with various addictions.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

[QUOTE="Mr Davis"[/QUOTE]
All of our unrighteousness has been imputed to Christ. And his righteousness has been imputed to us. He died for all of my sins past, present, and future, otherwise He would have to die many times (See Hebrews).[/QUOTE]
This is absolutely right, but you need to define 'our' here. Walking an aisle or raising a hand at a meeting does not make a Christian (Matthew 7:21-23). There must be a turning away from sin to Christ.

Kindly speak about the following:

I'm not sure what you want me to say. I don't know the lady or her circumstances beyond the extract you have given.
It appears that she has done the right thing. Faced with a besetting sin from which she cannot free herself, she has confessed to someone else (James 5:16), hopefully her Pastor, and received the help she needs.

I am currently helping someone who confesses Christ but whose addiction to internet pornography has led him into infidelity. I am looking to set up some sort of internet responsibility for him, but I am not going to deceive him by telling him that because it's an addiction he doesn't have the responsibility to deal with it or that he can carry on with it and still get to heaven.

 

[Reformed]

Are you a Calvinist? I seriously doubt it from your remarks.

Men are saved in eternity past (Ephesians 1) and God predestines their repentance (change of mind).

Men are predestined for salvation in eternity past, but their salvation occurs in time, not in the past. Regeneration still needs to take place even though God predestined the individual.

The fruit they bear depends on their cooperation with the Holy Spirit. Some do not cooperate and live for themselves. They be judged at the bema seat with the consequences spelled out in 1 Corinthians 3. (This is speaking of Carnal Christians). Remember, we are not saved by behaving in a certain way or by stop behaving in a certain way.

This is not what scripture teaches. Paul wrote in Ephesians 2:10, "For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, that we should walk in them." God commands that believers should perform good works. Since believers are saved for the very purpose of good works, the absence of good works is a clear refutation of the veracity of their claim to be a believer.

James debunks the notion that good works are not necessary as evidence of salvation. In. James 2:14 we read, "What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith, but does not have works? Can that faith save him?" James answers his own question in verse 17, "So, also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead." James doubles down on his thesis in verse 18, "But someone will say, "You have faith and I have works." Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works." The point James is making is clear. You can't show me your faith apart from your works! The two are inseparable.