Featured Predestination:

Jon, I think that you are entering very dangerous reasoning, which is not possible with our finite understanding. At no time can we attribute any sin, or sinful actions, to God, neither to Him or His involvement with His creation. The origin of evil/sin is a great mystery, which God in His infinite Wisdom, has not told us, nor does He "owe" us any explanation. We have to remember that we are but clay, and God is the Potter. The Foundation is that the God of the Holy Bible is Perfect in everything that He does. He is also very Holy, and Just and Righteous, etc. There are no imperfections in His Character, nor can He make mistakes, or fail. I don't think there is a human language that can adequately describe our Great God. He cannot be tempted to do evil, and nor does He tempt anyone to do evil. This is beyond His capabilities. Yes, He does use evil and sin for His purposes, as He did in the case of king Ahab, and the lying spirit, but never can it be said that He is in any way, the "author" of sin, or evil. The Bible says that every human ever born, is born with a sinful nature. There is also evidence in Scripture that says there is a time limit (only God knows what this is), when a person is in a state where they do not "know evil or good", as Romans 9:11 says, "though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad", so when anyone were to die before this time, they are guaranteed heaven. Again, God has not told us how this works, but we must fully trust Him at His Word. They are still born with a fallen sinful nature, as no one can be born "perfect". Yet another mystery! There is a time that we do become accountable for our actions, and thereby we are sinners before God, as all would natuarally chose to rebel and sin against God.

 

If God chooses to extend grace, they are elect. Not all infants die. This is by God's choice. Many live for years. Some are extended grace. Some are not. This is for the Sovereign God to determine.

The reason why people hide from God's sovereignty is obvious. They want a God who saves them, but is moldable into their own image and who will be their genie. They want to be their own sovereign ruler, but have a trusted advisor at the ready. What they don't like is to be a subservient vessel of a Sovereign God who can choose to do with them as He wills. That goes against their own pride and they fight at the bit.

 

I know what you are saying. However, when you say, "If God chooses to extend grace, they are elect", surely you must have Scripture support for this? I don't see a single verse that says this. I am open to correction.

 

Like I said, Jon, we are here trying to discuss what really is out of our depths!

This is what we are told in the Word of God:

"The Lord God took the man and put him in the garden of Eden to work it and keep it. And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, “You may surely eat of every tree of the garden, but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die" (Genesis 2:15-17)

God here commands that Adam and Eve should not eat "of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil", which, if they did, would result in their spiritual and psychical death. Without knowing (as this is beyond any of us) the full details, we do know that something did happen to them after they ate the forbidden fruit, because it says, "Then the eyes of both were opened, and they knew that they were naked" (3:7). Something changed in their human nature at that point, as they became "sinners" before God, and no longer "perfect" as they were created. Again, we cannot understand what happened, as we are not told. I don't think that we need to know.

Today we live in a world that "needs to know". But, it is humbling to submit to the Lord, and admit that we are limited and must fully trust in God Who knows all things and is Just, Perfect and cannot do wrong!

 

Jesus had the dame human nature as Adam had when created, sinless nature, but all except them have sin natures!
And babies still have taint of original Sin and the results of the fall!

 

Humans are all spiritually dead in adam, and spiritually alive again when reborn into Christ!

 

No need to deny all of us were made sinners at conception. Scripture is clear on that point. The problem is that fact does not fit with false theology. Does made sinners mean predestined to sin? Nope. Corrupted and therefore predisposed to sin? Yep. It means we entered life in a sinful, separated from God due to our corrupt unholiness, at conception. This condition is a consequence of the fall of Adam.
We are not guilty of Adam's sin, but rather the consequence of Adam's sin from conception was "visited" on us.

 

We are enemies with God. and are not able to obey Him in a saving fashion, correct?

 

Incorrect on many levels. Does obedience save anyone, or are we saved by grace through faith?

Romans 5:10 - For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. Now how are we saved? By obedience, or by grace through the death of His Son.
When we are united with Christ (God transferring us into Christ's propitiatory shelter) we are saved from the wrath of God, and made alive together with Christ.

 

God gives to his own their saving faith!

 

and damns the rest?

 

I don't think that we should try to be like God!

 

God does not send anyone to Hell by determing their destiny, its that he ordained where they go for rejecting jesus, as those in sin natures will always do!

 

Sure, but this condemnation is due to their not believing and has nothing to do with God not electing them! It says "believeth not", not cannot believe, but they choose not to.

 

Sure, so there has to be "free will", to either "accept" or "reject"?