Predestination:

[JonC]

No. God is not responsible for our sin.

I am not sure that I understand your point on this one. Scripture attributes our coming into being (our "procreation", that"knitting of us" in the womb) to God. If we were not formed by God as sinners, and if we were sinners prior to sinning, them at what point did we become sinners?

 

[AndyMartin]

I am not sure that I understand your point on this one. Scripture attributes our coming into being (our "procreation", that"knitting of us" in the womb) to God. If we were not formed by God as sinners, and if we were sinners prior to sinning, them at what point did we become sinners?

Jon, I think that you are entering very dangerous reasoning, which is not possible with our finite understanding. At no time can we attribute any sin, or sinful actions, to God, neither to Him or His involvement with His creation. The origin of evil/sin is a great mystery, which God in His infinite Wisdom, has not told us, nor does He "owe" us any explanation. We have to remember that we are but clay, and God is the Potter. The Foundation is that the God of the Holy Bible is Perfect in everything that He does. He is also very Holy, and Just and Righteous, etc. There are no imperfections in His Character, nor can He make mistakes, or fail. I don't think there is a human language that can adequately describe our Great God. He cannot be tempted to do evil, and nor does He tempt anyone to do evil. This is beyond His capabilities. Yes, He does use evil and sin for His purposes, as He did in the case of king Ahab, and the lying spirit, but never can it be said that He is in any way, the "author" of sin, or evil. The Bible says that every human ever born, is born with a sinful nature. There is also evidence in Scripture that says there is a time limit (only God knows what this is), when a person is in a state where they do not "know evil or good", as Romans 9:11 says, "though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad", so when anyone were to die before this time, they are guaranteed heaven. Again, God has not told us how this works, but we must fully trust Him at His Word. They are still born with a fallen sinful nature, as no one can be born "perfect". Yet another mystery! There is a time that we do become accountable for our actions, and thereby we are sinners before God, as all would natuarally chose to rebel and sin against God.

 

[JonC]

Jon, I think that you are entering very dangerous reasoning, which is not possible with our finite understanding. At no time can we attribute any sin, or sinful actions, to God, neither to Him or His involvement with His creation. The origin of evil/sin is a great mystery, which God in His infinite Wisdom, has not told us, nor does He "owe" us any explanation. We have to remember that we are but clay, and God is the Potter. The Foundation is that the God of the Holy Bible is Perfect in everything that He does. He is also very Holy, and Just and Righteous, etc. There are no imperfections in His Character, nor can He make mistakes, or fail. I don't think there is a human language that can adequately describe our Great God. He cannot be tempted to do evil, and nor does He tempt anyone to do evil. This is beyond His capabilities. Yes, He does use evil and sin for His purposes, as He did in the case of king Ahab, and the lying spirit, but never can it be said that He is in any way, the "author" of sin, or evil. The Bible says that every human ever born, is born with a sinful nature. There is also evidence in Scripture that says there is a time limit (only God knows what this is), when a person is in a state where they do not "know evil or good", as Romans 9:11 says, "though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad", so when anyone were to die before this time, they are guaranteed heaven. Again, God has not told us how this works, but we must fully trust Him at His Word. They are still born with a fallen sinful nature, as no one can be born "perfect". Yet another mystery! There is a time that we do become accountable for our actions, and thereby we are sinners before God, as all would natuarally chose to rebel and sin against God.

I agree you that we cannot attribute sin to God. I am not entering that reasoning at all, but instead am asking how, if God brought us into being, we came into being as sinners. I do not believe that we did, but this appears to me to be the line of reasoning presented on this thread.

I do not think this is a difficult issue at all, but rather that we make it difficult because we want to develop our own theologies and theories (and because we carry into Scripture tradition).

Here is what I believe:

I believe that with Adam’s act of disobedience man’s eyes were opened to good and evil and sin entered the world, and through sin death. And I believe that death spreads to all men because all have sinned. I think it is that simple. Adam is a type of Christ who was to come to redeem mankind as the “Last Adam”.

I find nowhere in Scripture that Adam’s sin created a “sin nature” – except that “sin nature” be defined as human nature with a knowledge of good and evil. If this is true, then Jesus shares this human nature because when Adam’s eyes were opened he became “like God knowing good and evil”. The human problem is not a nature that has to sin, but rather an issue of disobedience (of knowing good and evil and choosing evil).

Insofar as you explanation of why you believe those who die in infancy are not tormented in Hell for eternity....I completely agree and for the same reasons. Being human we die. This is a curse, and it is a curse related to Adam's sin. But our condemnation is related to our own sin.

If there is something in Scripture we cannot understand we should leave that to mystery and believe it anyway. This is better than inventing theories and pretending they are Scripture (which is what has occurred here – I’ve asked repeatedly for Scripture to support several statements, but my requests return void because we all know there are no such passages).

 

[MennoSota]

I understand perfectly well. My point is, that it appears from the words of Dr Bottener, that all infants, elect and nonelect are saved when they die. Firstly, where is the Scripture basis for this? Secondly, this then clearly shows, that the death of Jesus Christ DID include the non-elect, which means that He could not have only died for the elect as Calvinism teaches. You simply cannot have it both ways. Either Jesus' death was indeed for the entire human race, which would then include the non-elect infants who die, or, He died only for the elect, and since these infants are non-elect, then they are not included in His death, and cannot be saved when they die. Unless you say that all infants who die are part of the "elect"? This is absurd, and has not Scriptures that teach it!

I have always found inconsistencies with Calvinism, where they make it u as they go along! I think what Dr Bottener, Charles Hodge, W. G. T. Shedd, and B. B. Warfield, and others believe about "infant salvation", that all, including the "non-elect" will be saved, is a game-changer, as they contradict their own unbiblical theology of election! Further, note the words of Dr Bottener, "these infants have never committed any actual sin themselves", where it is clear that some Calvinists teach that infants no not commit "actual sins", so what of the fall of man, and mankind sinning in Adam? More inconsistencies!

Its no wonder the the greater majority of the Christian Church world-wide, shuns the teachings of Calvinism! Praise the Lord for this! Even many Calvinistic Churches are now preaching more like Arminians do, which is closer to the teachings of the Holy Bible. God is working out His purposes.

If God chooses to extend grace, they are elect. Not all infants die. This is by God's choice. Many live for years. Some are extended grace. Some are not. This is for the Sovereign God to determine.

The reason why people hide from God's sovereignty is obvious. They want a God who saves them, but is moldable into their own image and who will be their genie. They want to be their own sovereign ruler, but have a trusted advisor at the ready. What they don't like is to be a subservient vessel of a Sovereign God who can choose to do with them as He wills. That goes against their own pride and they fight at the bit.

 

[AndyMartin]

If God chooses to extend grace, they are elect. Not all infants die. This is by God's choice. Many live for years. Some are extended grace. Some are not. This is for the Sovereign God to determine.

The reason why people hide from God's sovereignty is obvious. They want a God who saves them, but is moldable into their own image and who will be their genie. They want to be their own sovereign ruler, but have a trusted advisor at the ready. What they don't like is to be a subservient vessel of a Sovereign God who can choose to do with them as He wills. That goes against their own pride and they fight at the bit.

I know what you are saying. However, when you say, "If God chooses to extend grace, they are elect", surely you must have Scripture support for this? I don't see a single verse that says this. I am open to correction.

 

[AndyMartin]

I agree you that we cannot attribute sin to God. I am not entering that reasoning at all, but instead am asking how, if God brought us into being, we came into being as sinners. I do not believe that we did, but this appears to me to be the line of reasoning presented on this thread.

I do not think this is a difficult issue at all, but rather that we make it difficult because we want to develop our own theologies and theories (and because we carry into Scripture tradition).

Here is what I believe:

I believe that with Adam’s act of disobedience man’s eyes were opened to good and evil and sin entered the world, and through sin death. And I believe that death spreads to all men because all have sinned. I think it is that simple. Adam is a type of Christ who was to come to redeem mankind as the “Last Adam”.

I find nowhere in Scripture that Adam’s sin created a “sin nature” – except that “sin nature” be defined as human nature with a knowledge of good and evil. If this is true, then Jesus shares this human nature because when Adam’s eyes were opened he became “like God knowing good and evil”. The human problem is not a nature that has to sin, but rather an issue of disobedience (of knowing good and evil and choosing evil).

Insofar as you explanation of why you believe those who die in infancy are not tormented in Hell for eternity....I completely agree and for the same reasons. Being human we die. This is a curse, and it is a curse related to Adam's sin. But our condemnation is related to our own sin.

If there is something in Scripture we cannot understand we should leave that to mystery and believe it anyway. This is better than inventing theories and pretending they are Scripture (which is what has occurred here – I’ve asked repeatedly for Scripture to support several statements, but my requests return void because we all know there are no such passages).

Like I said, Jon, we are here trying to discuss what really is out of our depths!

This is what we are told in the Word of God:

"The Lord God took the man and put him in the garden of Eden to work it and keep it. And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, “You may surely eat of every tree of the garden, but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die" (Genesis 2:15-17)

God here commands that Adam and Eve should not eat "of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil", which, if they did, would result in their spiritual and psychical death. Without knowing (as this is beyond any of us) the full details, we do know that something did happen to them after they ate the forbidden fruit, because it says, "Then the eyes of both were opened, and they knew that they were naked" (3:7). Something changed in their human nature at that point, as they became "sinners" before God, and no longer "perfect" as they were created. Again, we cannot understand what happened, as we are not told. I don't think that we need to know.

Today we live in a world that "needs to know". But, it is humbling to submit to the Lord, and admit that we are limited and must fully trust in God Who knows all things and is Just, Perfect and cannot do wrong!

 

[Yeshua1]

Insofar as the consequence of sin, I believe so. But this is death. I think the issue is when we over-spiritualize things in such a way that Jesus could not have truly been human and infants are guilty of transgressing God's commands.

Jesus had the dame human nature as Adam had when created, sinless nature, but all except them have sin natures!
And babies still have taint of original Sin and the results of the fall!

 

[Yeshua1]

No. We are born in sin and into sin. No, I have not been beating around the bush at all trying to redefine what it means to be a sinner. I thought I was very clear, but I’ll restate here:

We sin when we are carried away by our own desires, the lusts of the flesh. It is a matter of the will. Adam did not submit to the will of God (he desired what was forbidden and was carried away by this desire when tempted…and disobeyed God). Jesus was tempted as we are (Satan tempted Jesus to satisfy the desires of the flesh….e.g., to break His period of fasting and satisfy His hunger) yet Jesus did not sin.

What I am questioning is not that we are born into iniquity, or that we have desires that are not in accordance with God’s will. Jesus struggled with these desires also (in the Garden He prayed that the cup pass, yet the will of the Father be done). I am questioning the idea that Adam and Jesus had natures that were foreign to mankind. If you have a passage that affirms this idea then I will consider it.Yes, the dog cannot help but to bark because this is what God has created the dog to do. I disagree because while I do think that our sin falls within God’s providence I do not believe that we are created to sin. Unlike the dog, which has no moral guilt over barking regardless as to the desires of his master, man is morally guilty and responsible for his sin because man – not God – authored sin.

Humans are all spiritually dead in adam, and spiritually alive again when reborn into Christ!

 

[Van]

No need to deny all of us were made sinners at conception. Scripture is clear on that point. The problem is that fact does not fit with false theology. Does made sinners mean predestined to sin? Nope. Corrupted and therefore predisposed to sin? Yep. It means we entered life in a sinful, separated from God due to our corrupt unholiness, at conception. This condition is a consequence of the fall of Adam.
We are not guilty of Adam's sin, but rather the consequence of Adam's sin from conception was "visited" on us.

 

[Yeshua1]

No need to deny all of us were made sinners at conception. Scripture is clear on that point. The problem is that fact does not fit with false theology. Does made sinners mean predestined to sin? Nope. It means we entered life in a sinful, separated from God due to unholiness, at conception. This condition is a consequence of the fall of Adam.

We are enemies with God. and are not able to obey Him in a saving fashion, correct?

 

[JonC]

Like I said, Jon, we are here trying to discuss what really is out of our depths!

This is what we are told in the Word of God:

"The Lord God took the man and put him in the garden of Eden to work it and keep it. And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, “You may surely eat of every tree of the garden, but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die" (Genesis 2:15-17)

God here commands that Adam and Eve should not eat "of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil", which, if they did, would result in their spiritual and psychical death. Without knowing (as this is beyond any of us) the full details, we do know that something did happen to them after they ate the forbidden fruit, because it says, "Then the eyes of both were opened, and they knew that they were naked" (3:7). Something changed in their human nature at that point, as they became "sinners" before God, and no longer "perfect" as they were created. Again, we cannot understand what happened, as we are not told. I don't think that we need to know.

Today we live in a world that "needs to know". But, it is humbling to submit to the Lord, and admit that we are limited and must fully trust in God Who knows all things and is Just, Perfect and cannot do wrong!

I agree. But at the same time I think there may be more to know than you may be allowing (this knowledge is spoken of in Genesis as something in common with God so perhaps the sin is not in the nature itself but the disobedience when we choose to place our desires over God's will). Also, there are assumptions made beyond what is offered in Scripture (what changed was human nature, for example, rather than the transgression revealing to Adam his nature in disobedience).

 

[Van]

We are enemies with God. and are not able to obey Him in a saving fashion, correct?

Incorrect on many levels. Does obedience save anyone, or are we saved by grace through faith?

Romans 5:10 - For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. Now how are we saved? By obedience, or by grace through the death of His Son.
When we are united with Christ (God transferring us into Christ's propitiatory shelter) we are saved from the wrath of God, and made alive together with Christ.

 

[Yeshua1]

Incorrect on many levels. Does obedience save anyone, or are we saved by grace through faith?

Romans 5:10 - For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. Now how are we saved? By obedience, or by grace through the death of His Son.
When we are united with Christ (God transferring us into Christ's propitiatory shelter) we are saved from the wrath of God, and made alive together with Christ.

God gives to his own their saving faith!

 

[AndyMartin]

God gives to his own their saving faith!

and damns the rest?

 

[AndyMartin]

I agree. But at the same time I think there may be more to know than you may be allowing (this knowledge is spoken of in Genesis as something in common with God so perhaps the sin is not in the nature itself but the disobedience when we choose to place our desires over God's will). Also, there are assumptions made beyond what is offered in Scripture (what changed was human nature, for example, rather than the transgression revealing to Adam his nature in disobedience).

I don't think that we should try to be like God!

 

[Yeshua1]

and damns the rest?

God does not send anyone to Hell by determing their destiny, its that he ordained where they go for rejecting jesus, as those in sin natures will always do!

 

[TCassidy]

at what point did we become sinners?

Psalm 51:5 - at the moment of our conception.

 

[TCassidy]

and damns the rest?

No. They are condemned already.

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

 

[AndyMartin]

No. They are condemned already.

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Sure, but this condemnation is due to their not believing and has nothing to do with God not electing them! It says "believeth not", not cannot believe, but they choose not to.

 

[AndyMartin]

God does not send anyone to Hell by determing their destiny, its that he ordained where they go for rejecting jesus, as those in sin natures will always do!

Sure, so there has to be "free will", to either "accept" or "reject"?