Spiritual interpretation ....pt.7

[Covenanter]

The fact that the passage you referenced you was written before A.D.70, proves that it was a reality before then. It seems as if you are moving all the significance from the cross of Christ to A.D. 70. Do you not believe that the passage you referenced really happened? The reason this always comes back to A.D. 70 is because it is at the center of your hermeneutic. That is not my fault.

Jesus' role as prophet would be discredited if his prophecies did not come to pass.

Before Peter wrote his second letter the mockers were at work.

Where is this coming he promised?​

He cannot be primarily concerned with the yet future final coming, as that will not vindicate Jesus' Olivet prophecy. The mockers would die mocking.

Jesus was vindicated and glorified by the ad 70 destruction.

Just as John was vindicated by his prophecy concerning Jesus, NOT discredited by the unbelief of the Jews.

 

[Covenanter]

I also fine it very interesting Joel 2:32 was cutoff mid verse in Acts 2.

Why, and is that relative to the Spirit being poured out on all flesh? Does all mean all?

In fact, Peter quotes the final clause of v. 32 in Acts 2:39.

"All" is defined in the passage. All ages and all sorts of people of both sexes. And all those God calls.

 

[percho]

In fact, Peter quotes the final clause of v. 32 in Acts 2:39.

"All" is defined in the passage. All ages and all sorts of people of both sexes. And all those God calls.

but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him

In fact, Peter quotes the final clause of v. 32 in Acts 2:39.

"All" is defined in the passage. All ages and all sorts of people of both sexes. And all those God calls.

And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. Matt 19:28
And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.Rev 20:4,6
After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up: That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things. Acts 15:16,17
And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call. Joel 2:32


Are these contextual.? Are the remnant, the same as ,all the Gentiles upon whom my name is called, the same as, they shall be priests and reign with him and inclusive with the twelve sitting on twelve thrones judging?

Are they contextual chronologically?

Is that reigning presently taking place with a people upon whom my name is called or is God still taking out of the Gentiles a people for his name?

Has the regeneration of Matt 19:28 or the and they lived of Rev 20 or the I will return and build again of Acts 15 taken place yet?

 

[Iconoclast]

Actsv15:14,15......explains verses 16-18 as a spiritual fulfillment that literally explains God's intentions back from Amos 9.
The literal teaching that the gentiles flood into the church was a prophecy when Amos wrote it.....but is fulfilled in Acts15...it is not future from Acts 15.
Those that suggest any other "more literal fulfillment " are in error.....the literal interpretation is SPIRITUAL REALITY FOR THE CHURCH.

 

[Yeshua1]

Jesus' role as prophet would be discredited if his prophecies did not come to pass.

Before Peter wrote his second letter the mockers were at work.

Where is this coming he promised?​

He cannot be primarily concerned with the yet future final coming, as that will not vindicate Jesus' Olivet prophecy. The mockers would die mocking.

Jesus was vindicated and glorified by the ad 70 destruction.

Just as John was vindicated by his prophecy concerning Jesus, NOT discredited by the unbelief of the Jews.

The second coming event has yet to happen!

 

[Yeshua1]

but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him



And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. Matt 19:28
And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.Rev 20:4,6
After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up: That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things. Acts 15:16,17
And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call. Joel 2:32


Are these contextual.? Are the remnant, the same as ,all the Gentiles upon whom my name is called, the same as, they shall be priests and reign with him and inclusive with the twelve sitting on twelve thrones judging?

Are they contextual chronologically?

Is that reigning presently taking place with a people upon whom my name is called or is God still taking out of the Gentiles a people for his name?

Has the regeneration of Matt 19:28 or the and they lived of Rev 20 or the I will return and build again of Acts 15 taken place yet?

There shall be a thousand year difference between when we re raised and glorified to rule with Jesus here on the earth, and the second resurrection unto the Great White Throne judgement event!

 

[PrmtvBptst1832]

Hmm, either you're really confused and missed my point or you're intentionally misrepresenting me. Either way I'm done here for a while.

I simply asked you a question.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Well Martin everyone believes the scriptures are about Jesus.
Part of His work was judging the nation of Israel for their rebellion.
The gospel accounts include and focus on those judgments.
Why 70 ad is important to the discussion is much of the futurist view hinges on speculations based on these passages which in all likelihood were completely fulfilled with ongoing results.
The result is many hours and sermons in churches are misguided and fearful looking for the antichrist and one world government that premill spokesman Y1 indicates rather than seeing the gospel spread worldwide.

Icon,
I understand all that, but to make almost all prophecy focus on AD 70 makes the Bible a historical document rather than an aid and encouragement to people living through all the centuries.

The Rider on the white horse is riding right now, extending the Kingdom of God. But He is accompanied by death, war, famine and violence and these will continue right up until our Lord's return. Likewise, although some of His words in the Olivet Discourse do apply to AD 70, many do not, especially His command to be expecting His return to be at any time. His Return in glory was what the Corinthians, Philippians, Thessalonians and Hebrews were longing for, and so should we be.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

There shall be a thousand year difference between when we re raised and glorified to rule with Jesus here on the earth, and the second resurrection unto the Great White Throne judgement event!

I think you'll find there won't.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

It's dishonest of you to keep saying that for all others to read as if that's what I believe. YOU'RE the one with 70 AD on the brain, which is a smear tactic on your part.

As I say, one of us has AD 70 on the brain, but I think you'll find it isn't me.
You are the one insisting that all prophecy focusses on AD 70 when no one whatsoever saw Christ.

 

[Yeshua1]

John said that great hope should purify our lives, as we are expecting Him to bring to us our glorified forms, and that did NOT happen AD 70!

 

[Yeshua1]

As I say, one of us has AD 70 on the brain, but I think you'll find it isn't me.
You are the one insisting that all prophecy focusses on AD 70 when no one whatsoever saw Christ.

ALL alive on earth shall see Him at that time!

 

[Iconoclast]

Icon,
I understand all that, but to make almost all prophecy focus on AD 70 makes the Bible a historical document rather than an aid and encouragement to people living through all the centuries.

The Rider on the white horse is riding right now, extending the Kingdom of God. But He is accompanied by death, war, famine and violence and these will continue right up until our Lord's return. Likewise, although some of His words in the Olivet Discourse do apply to AD 70, many do not, especially His command to be expecting His return to be at any time. His Return in glory was what the Corinthians, Philippians, Thessalonians and Hebrews were longing for, and so should we be.

Hello Martin,
I find the amill position to be a close cousin to what I hold. I thought once I moved out of dispensational territory that I was amill by default.
The main difficulty I have is it in my mind at least is more general and does not look to be very specific.
I mean it seems to give more room for speculation on the meaning of the symbols. I can read various writers make a plausible case,however I do not feel convinced enough to leave my own stumbling around and trying to arrange it all in a way I can present to others.
When you or other friends post your thoughts, I pay attention,and try and sort of test it out.....in other words.....what would it mean if Martin is correct on the white horse still riding?
I do believe there is a strong link between Hebrews and Revelation.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Hello Martin,
I find the amill position to be a close cousin to what I hold. I thought once I moved out of dispensational territory that I was amill by default.
The main difficulty I have is it in my mind at least is more general and does not look to be very specific.
I mean it seems to give more room for speculation on the meaning of the symbols. I can read various writers make a plausible case,however I do not feel convinced enough to leave my own stumbling around and trying to arrange it all in a way I can present to others.
When you or other friends post your thoughts, I pay attention,and try and sort of test it out.....in other words.....what would it mean if Martin is correct on the white horse still riding?
I do believe there is a strong link between Hebrews and Revelation.

Thanks, Icon,
I appreciate the friendly tone of your post. You are right that there are varying views within the Amil 'family,' but I don't see that as disqualifying the whole position. The important thing of the Progressive Parallelism to which I hold is that Revelation has relevance both for its original readers and for us today.

I cannot accept a Premil position because it seems to shovel the whole book into the future which would be no help to the Ist Century readers, but nor can I accept the Preterist position which places almost all the action in AD 70, which gives no practical help to us, and also places the Return of Christ in glory way into the future. The Ist Century Christians were believing that Christ might return in their own lifetimes (Philippians 3:20-21), which is what we also should be believing (Mark 13:32-37; 2 Peter 3:10-13).

 

[Yeshua1]

Historical premils like myself though would see Revelation as havign differing aspects, as some of it will get repeated over and over throughout history, but there will be a final Antichrist and second coming of Jesus...

 

[Covenanter]

Thanks, Icon,
I appreciate the friendly tone of your post. You are right that there are varying views within the Amil 'family,' but I don't see that as disqualifying the whole position. The important thing of the Progressive Parallelism to which I hold is that Revelation has relevance both for its original readers and for us today.

I cannot accept a Premil position because it seems to shovel the whole book into the future which would be no help to the Ist Century readers, but nor can I accept the Preterist position which places almost all the action in AD 70, which gives no practical help to us, and also places the Return of Christ in glory way into the future. The Ist Century Christians were believing that Christ might return in their own lifetimes (Philippians 3:20-21), which is what we also should be believing (Mark 13:32-37; 2 Peter 3:10-13).

A strength of the Preterist position is that the Olivet prophecies are seen to have specific fulfilment. Revelation can thus be understood as a restatement of those prophecies.

Peter was aware of scoffers challenging Jesus because his "coming" for judgment had not occurred. He reminds them that they are presuming on God's longsuffering. Time to repent, NOW! AD 70 put an end to doubts and doubters.

The historical amil position means that there is no specific, testable prophetic fulfilment. That is not a complete failure, but it means we should recognize what people claim as fulfilment relates to specific first century events as examples for our encouragement.

We will then avoid the obsession with trying to identify Revelation characters and events as living people, and events in the middle East.

Instead, our "obsession" should be with getting on with witness, watching and praying. The prophesied events did happen. Jesus' coming for resurrection and judgment will be without specific warnings.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

A strength of the Preterist position is that the Olivet prophecies are seen to have specific fulfilment. Revelation can thus be understood as a restatement of those prophecies.

None denies that the Lord Jesus predicted the destruction of the Temple (Matthew 24:2), and I certainly don't deny that He put a time marker on it (v.34). But several other prophesies are better seen as operative all through the age (vs. 4-14) and this is backed up by Revelation. No one at all saw the Son of Man 'coming on the clouds of heaven with great power' in AD 70.
[QUOTE}
Peter was aware of scoffers challenging Jesus because his "coming" for judgment had not occurred. He reminds them that they are presuming on God's longsuffering. Time to repent, NOW! AD 70 put an end to doubts and doubters. [/QUOTE]
So you think that AD 70 put an end to doubt and doubting? And to scoffing as well? I don't think so!

The historical amil position means that there is no specific, testable prophetic fulfilment.

Sure there is! Wars and rumours of wars; nation rising against nation; famines, earthquakes and pestilences; false Christs and false prophets, and of course the Gospel being steadily preached throughout the world. When people ask me about these things and ask why God doesn't do something, I tell them that if they didn't happen the Bible wouldn't be true.

That is not a complete failure,

It's not a failure at all.

but it means we should recognize what people claim as fulfilment relates to specific first century events as examples for our encouragement.

Yes, but they didn't happen! No one saw the Lord Jesus in AD 70. And as for all the other things, they didn't stop in AD 70, that's for sure!

We will then avoid the obsession with trying to identify Revelation characters and events as living people, and events in the middle East.

Instead, our "obsession" should be with getting on with witness, watching and praying.

Well, for sure! Certainly we should not be bent out of shape by unfulfilled prophecy and get on with 'speeding the Lord's coming (2 Peter 3:12) by preaching the Gospel all through the world.

The prophesied events did happen. Jesus' coming for resurrection and judgment will be without specific warnings.

Rather, the prophesied events are being fulfilled all through history and will continue to be so until the Lord's coming, which will, as you say, be without specific warnings.

 

[Covenanter]

None denies that the Lord Jesus predicted the destruction of the Temple (Matthew 24:2), and I certainly don't deny that He put a time marker on it (v.34). But several other prophesies are better seen as operative all through the age (vs. 4-14) and this is backed up by Revelation. No one at all saw the Son of Man 'coming on the clouds of heaven with great power' in AD 70.


Peter was aware of scoffers challenging Jesus because his "coming" for judgment had not occurred. He reminds them that they are presuming on God's longsuffering. Time to repent, NOW! AD 70 put an end to doubts and doubters.
So you think that AD 70 put an end to doubt and doubting? And to scoffing as well? I don't think so!

Sure there is! Wars and rumours of wars; nation rising against nation; famines, earthquakes and pestilences; false Christs and false prophets, and of course the Gospel being steadily preached throughout the world. When people ask me about these things and ask why God doesn't do something, I tell them that if they didn't happen the Bible wouldn't be true.

It's not a failure at all.

Yes, but they didn't happen! No one saw the Lord Jesus in AD 70. And as for all the other things, they didn't stop in AD 70, that's for sure!

Well, for sure! Certainly we should not be bent out of shape by unfulfilled prophecy and get on with 'speeding the Lord's coming (2 Peter 3:12) by preaching the Gospel all through the world.

Rather, the prophesied events are being fulfilled all through history and will continue to be so until the Lord's coming, which will, as you say, be without specific warnings.

Jesus specifically teaches that the happenings of 4-14 are NOT signs. They will happen.

Regarding "coming on the clouds" seeing in the sense of understanding must be what Jesus meant, or his prophecy has failed, as the scoffers were claiming. He told his accusers the same. He was quoting Daniel 7. He spoke of his ascension which was accepted by many, from Pentecost on, but rejected by the leaders. They were given a generation to recognize him and repent. They didn't, but surely did see the truth of his "coming" prophecy when they saw it happening all around them.

The specifically prophesied doubts and scoffing of the Jews ended with the destruction, following the warning signs. What has happened down the ages is not a sign of anything specific.

It would be helpful to relate the prophecies to the Acts record. E.g. the Gospel was preached to the world that was taxed.[/QUOTE]

 

[The Biblicist]

The Kingdom of God teaching in scripture is simple if you start with the right premise. The right premise is grounded in Genesis 1;26-27 and God's purpose for creating man. Man was to "rule" over this present world as God's vice regent. God's rule is first WITHIN man and that is why man was made in the "image" of God and "upright" according to a moral standard - God's righteousness. God's rule was to be THROUGH man over this world. God created a sinless world with a sinless ruler (Adam). The fall destroyed the rule of God IN man and thereby destroyed it THROUGH man. The eternal covenant of redemption is designed to first establish God's rule IN man and then THROUGH man. This restored rule will not be accomplished according to the eternal covenant design until there is another sinless world ruled over by sinless man.

In the mean time,the rule of God is being manifest THROUGH man progressively according to progressive sanctification but never perfectly until "thy kingdom come" when God's will, will be manifest on earth as it is in heaven - perfectly IN and THROUGH man within a sinless new heaven and earth.

In this age that progressive imperfect rule THROUGH man is manifested through the public kingdom administration which began with the family unit in Genesis, and then progressed to the "house of God" within a visible expressive kingdom - Israel. After the cross it then was transferred along with the "keys of the kingdom" to the New Testament "house of God" until the end of this age. Individually, his rule has always been IN man established by spiritual union and then THROUGH man established by progressive sanctification, but institutionally it has been established IN the "house of God."

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Jesus specifically teaches that the happenings of 4-14 are NOT signs. They will happen.

Indeed He does, and they have been happening through the ages and are still happening today. That's one reason why we know the Bible is true.

Regarding "coming on the clouds" seeing in the sense of understanding must be what Jesus meant, or his prophecy has failed, as the scoffers were claiming. He told his accusers the same. He was quoting Daniel 7. He spoke of his ascension which was accepted by many, from Pentecost on, but rejected by the leaders. They were given a generation to recognize him and repent. They didn't, but surely did see the truth of his "coming" prophecy when they saw it happening all around them.

Our Lord's ascension into heaven was not invisible. It was seen by countless myriads of angels (Daniel 7:10-14; 1 Timothy 3:16). Nor will His return 'on the clouds' be invisible (Acts 1:11; Revelation 1:7).

The specifically prophesied doubts and scoffing of the Jews ended with the destruction, following the warning signs. What has happened down the ages is not a sign of anything specific.

What makes you think that Peter was referring to Jews specifically? His first letter was written to Christians living in Central and Northern Turkey (1 Peter 1:1; cf. 2 Peter 3:1). Even if he were referring to Jews, there are plenty of Jews today who scoff at Christianity.

It would be helpful to relate the prophecies to the Acts record. E.g. the Gospel was preached to the world that was taxed.

So you think it was never our Lord's intention that the Gospel should go outside the Roman world? Strange! Matthew 24:14. "And this Gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come." Were people in Japan or Australia given a witness of the Gospel by AD 70?Also, although the Gospel was preached remarkably quickly, it is extremely doubtful that it had reached the whole of the Roman world by AD 70.