Conditional Immortality! Do You Understand It? Do You Believe It?

Lol. What makes it the second death if there is not a first one?

 

It is the Second Death. Not just the second death for some. Some will not die before Christ appears. (And if you're a Dispy) some will not die before the Judgement. So it can't be their second death.

As it is the Second Death for everyone, though it has no power over the redeemed, there is a first death of which all have to be partakers. The first death is the death into which all men have entered in Adam: . . . and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned, Rom 5:12.

 

I didn't say that. I said that there are those (redeemed and unredeemed) who will not die physically before the Judgement. The Second Death would therefore be their first death.

 

Sounds like a wise move, since you deny I presented the biblical basis for the fact being spiritually dead means the person is not united with Christ.

 

- pure semanitics as your definition of "end of life" is the cessation of what was living.

You fail to deal with the context of the origin of man. It is the body that came from the ground not the plural "lives" (lit. Heb) that came from God. Moreover, Solomon says the body returns to the earth but the spirit returns to God. So you have no point as your point is a total disregard of the immediate and overall context of scripture.

Again, you fail to interpret according to the over all context. Ecclesiastes also says the spirit of man returns to God thus physical death is a SEPARATION of the immaterial aspect of man's nature from the material aspect (which returns to dust). Thus again, physical death is SEPARATION. Moreover, you fail to take in the truth that God said that man would die "IN THE DAY HE ATE" and thus there is a spiritual SEPARATION from God "in the day he ate" DUE TO SIN just as Paul explains the "dead" condition of the physically alive Ephesians due to sin. Your position simply will not stand the test of proper exegesis.

Genesis 3:22 does not help your position at all. Adam had sinned and he had died spiritually "in the day he ate" and now by partaking of the tree of life he would continue physically alive forever in a spiritually SEPARATED state from God, thus in an irrecoverable condition.

And I never said that of physical death, but I said that of your ash heap false doctrine of the second death. I said in the final analysis your "ash" finality is "cessation of all personal existence" while your physical death position is the cessation of all physical personal existence.


That last claim is all yours, and not even a little bit from me. You are putting words in my mouth, words that do ALL of the work in "proving" your claim.

The Bible calls it the "second DEATH" and you redefine it to be the "second ANNIHILATION" into ashes.

2 Peter 2:6 says no such thing about the "second death" or about "Gehenna" but is speaking of the time of Lot and what happened to the physical structures and persons.

your words fit yourself perfectly.

First, you don't understand the fact that Adam was given plural "lives" (Gen. 3:7 lit. Hebrew) and so with your forced limitations on "life" you cannot possibly understand, much less, interpret correctly the Biblical application of life. There is physical life, but there is also spiritual life or else there is no need to be "born of the Spirit" and what is born of Spirit "is spirit" a quickening (giving life).

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That is a far cry from what I believe Biblical death to be, as it does not even begin to explain what I believe about death. I have merely reduced it to its biblical essence (separation) to begin our discussion. But if you imagine that is all I believe or all the Bible teaches about death you are sorely mistaken.

You claim to be a dualist correct? So think about your own position concerning physical death! You admit that man cannot kill the body correct (Mt.10:28) and so the soul survives the death of the body. So physical death is not all about the body but it is obviously and clearly a SEPARATION of the body from the soul.

Death has the basic meaning of separation. The "brother" who lives after the flesh is living in a condition of separation from the fellowship of God as one cannot walk "in the Spirit" and "after the flesh' at one and the same time. That is why we are commanded to put to death the old man which separates him from controlling our soul (mind, emotions, will) so that our daily life glorifies God. However, this is a whole different aspect.

 

As many theologians he has chosen wrong words to express a truth. The human spirit is not non-existent within the lost man which comes into existence at the new birth (Spurgeon believed this). This is what he means as he continues to say, "because the bible talks about unbelievers HAVING A SPIRIT that is obviously in rebellion against God."

You and your compadres have all ignored the Ephesian evidence and the contextual responses I have made that prove a literal spiritual separation between the lost man and God which is remedied by a literal and spiritual quickening of that literal human "spirit" (Jn. 3:6).

 

When will you stop ignoring the evidences of spiritual separation placed before you and evidences that your interpretations have no contextual validity????? In order to have a discussion both sides must deal with the arguments and you have not done that. I repeated my posts but still neither you or your compadres will respond.

 

Van, I believe I stated that I don't understand what point you were attempting to make. That means I don't deny you did anything -- I simply don't know what you're talking about. I've tried to ask questions and everything, and you've not clarified.

With that said, though, I will add this: the OP does not stand or fall on what "being spiritually dead" means in your systematic theology. It stands or falls on what being dead means in those specific passages the OP cited, as well as what death versus life means as an eschatological punishment versus eschatological reward. The state of the wicked in this life is simply not the same as their future state.

 

There's nothing wrong with that. In fact I admire such cooperation. This is actually a very interesting thread. I'm happy to see the new faces with fresh views. It's good for all of us.

 

I may have missed this being addressed earlier, but, I'm curious what your all's take on this is:

23 And in Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am in anguish in this flame.
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and Lazarus in like manner evil things: but now here he is comforted and thou art in anguish. Lu 16

 

For example, Ephesians 2:1 Paul is speaking to phyically alive people who were nevertheless "dead" in a specific sense or in the sphere of "trespasses and sins."

Of course I am not when you dissect this one sentence from the rest of the argument presented. However, the whole argument presented does demand that death involves spiritual separation.


God IS life, meaning the source of all life (Jn. 1:4). God IS light, meaning the source of all true light (Gen. 1:3, Jn. 1:4; etc.). God IS the source of all holiness. God IS the source of all love. The lost man is SEPARATED SPIRITUALLY from God and as such he is SEPARATED from all four of these characteristics which have their source in God Ephesians 4:18-19 demonstrates and describes that “dead” condition due to sin in Ephesians 2:1 that can only be reversed by the act of quickening (which has no reference to the body) and being “saved” which does not refer to the body and to be “created in Christ Jesus” which has no reference to the body as these are all past tense completed actions that refer to the “spirit” of man as Jesus said “what is born of the Spirit IS SPIRIT” (Jn. 3:6). Ephesians 4:18-19 topically describes the same previous lost condition first described in Ephesians 2:1-3.

Eph. 2:1 ¶ And you has he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

This previous “dead” state is further described in Ephesian 2:2-3

2 Wherein in time past you walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now works in the children of disobedience:
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

and Ephesians 4:18-19:

Eph. 4:18 Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:
19 Who being past feeling have given themselves over to lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.

1. God IS life – “alienated from the life of God – SEPARATION from God spiritually - dead

2. God IS light – “darkened” SEPARATION from God spiritually - dead

3. God IS love – “past feelings” SEPARATION from God spiritually - dead

4. God IS HOLY – “given over.,…all uncleanness” SEPARATION from God spirually - dead

The term "dead" cannot possibly be interpreted as metaphorical as the "spirit" of man is a realty and it is the "spirit" of man that is the object of this quickening (Jn. 3:6). Moreover, this term "dead" is further described in Ephesians 2;2-3 as a spiritual condition as it is in Ephesians 4:18-19. Moreover, it is further described as synonymous with being "saved"

Even when we were dead in sins, has quickened us together with Christ, (by grace you are saved

It is further described as a creative act of God that unites us spiritually with Christ which demands a previous SEPARATION from Christ or what is previusly described as being "dead in tresspasses and sins" and further described in verses 2-3 as spiritual union with Satan "working IN". It is this same cause "sin" that is described by the term SEPARATED or a separated state from God in Isaiah 59:2. It is this same death that occurred due to sin "in the day" Adam sinned and it was not his body that suffered death "in the day" he sinned. It was his spirit as it is the spirit that is quickened, or born from above which is absurd if it were not previously dead.

 

Furthermore, later in Ephesians 4:18 they had been "alienated from the life of God" due to the very same issue (sinful nature) but were yet physically alive. In Isaiah 59:2 sin "separated" them from an omnipresent God.

Yes, they do! The declaration of being "dead" and what is the cause of this death is stated in Ephesians 2:1 "in tresspasses and sins" while Ephesians 2:2-3 further defines and explains this "dead" condition as a spiritual relationship with Satan ("working in.....children of disobedience). Ephesians 4:18-19 further describes this "dead" state as separation from God as my previous post explains in detail.

 

Adam in fact did die "in the day he ate" but not physically (Gen. 5:5).

The point is that something did in fact die "in the day" he sinned and it was not his physical body. That only leaves some immateral aspect of his human nature. Jesus says that it is the "spirit" of man that is born of the Spirit and Paul describes this new birth from above by the word "quickened." He further describes it as a creative act of God that unites us spiritually "in Christ Jesus" (Eph. 2;10) as well as "saved" and all these are described by completed action verbs which actions have nothing to do with the physical body. Man's physical nature comes from the earth, but his spiritual nature comes directly from God and returns directly to God. It is this spiritual nature that "died" and is "quickened" (Jn. 3:6).

This death of the spiritual nature is described in terms of SEPARATION from God as Ephesians 2:2-3 and 4:18-19 make abundantly clear. "IN the day" he sinned he died, meaning his spiritual nature suffered spiritual SEPARATION from God who is the source of life, light, holiness and love and that separation is manifested by the very opposite characteristics (dead, dark, depraved and enmity) due to SEPARATION from the source of life, light, love, and holiness.

Sin is the stated cause of this death and sin is also the stated cause of SEPARATION from God (Isa. 59:2; Eph. 2:1-3; 4:18-19).

 

I made no such "implicit claim." The curse of the law IS death. The "wages of sin IS death". Death is first spiritual separation from God as the source of life, light, love and holiness, second death is the separation of the material nature of man from his immaterial nature, the material returns to the dust and the immaterial returns to God. Death is ultimately separation of the whole man eternally in a place of conscious torment called Gehenna.

 

The reversing of this state proves this. What is born of Spirit is NOT FLESH but the spirit, thus what is "quickened" is not flesh but the spirit of man.

No, I did not omit any passage. The reversing of this "dead" state in Ephesians 2:1 which "dead" state is further explained in Ephesians 2:2-3 and 4:18-19 demands it is the actual spirit of man that is in this "dead" condition as what is "born of Spirit IS SPIRIT." This is what is "quickened...saved.....created in Christ Jesus" (Eph. 2:5,8,10) all completed action verbs describing the same thing that reverses the "dead" state due to tresspasses and sins. Hence, "dead" cannot mean either literally or metaphorically non-existence and neither can "quickening" mean existence, but something previously existing in a state of separation from God is brought back into spiritual union with God "created in Christ Jesus."