Conditional Immortality! Do You Understand It? Do You Believe It?

[Mark Corbett]

Have you considered how the Psalms relate to our discussion?

The Language of Annihilation in the Psalms

Many of the God’s great truths which are explicitly seen in the New Testament when Christ is revealed are foreshadowed in poetic language in the Psalms. The Psalms are filled with Holy Spirit inspired poetry as David and the other authors cry out to God in the midst of pain and suffering, and also as they worship and give thanks to Him. So the Psalms often deal with the immediate situations the authors are facing. Yet, God’s answers to their cries are bound up with His great plans for all of history and eternity. So we find that mixed in with the events of their day, the Psalms also contain strong prophetic elements which look forward to future parts of God’s plan. This is seen clearly in the Messianic psalms where at times the author seems to be discussing the struggles and honor of an earthly king, then there is a shift to a much greater, eternal King. The psalmist seems to be crying out about His own struggles, then we realize that there is a prophecy of the suffering of Christ. The authors look for immediate help from God, but also describe eternal victories which go beyond anything they see in their lifetime. With this in mind, it would not be at all surprising, if mixed in with descriptions of God judging the wicked in this current age, we also found prophecies about God’s eternal justice and the eternal fate of the wicked. In fact, that is exactly what we do find. The language of the Psalms is full of imagery and descriptions which support the view of just punishment.

Psalm 37

Just as Psalm 22 stands out as the psalm most clearly pointing to the sufferings of Christ, there is one psalm which stands out as most clearly describing God’s final judgment of the unrighteous. It is Psalm 37. Psalm 37 is born out of a struggle which we can all relate to. Specifically, we are frustrated when we see the wicked prospering and successfully carrying out their wicked schemes:

Psalm 37:7b …do not fret when people succeed in their ways, when they carry out their wicked schemes.

God addresses this concern in several ways. He promises that He will help and protect those who trust in Him. Some of this help occurs now in this present age, but some of it looks forward into eternity. But what about the wicked? God describes what He will do to them. While some of this description of judgment may very well refer to judgments in this life, that cannot be the complete meaning of what the Lord is saying. After all, the whole point is to address the painful reality that in this life sometimes the wicked do succeed. And if it’s true that all wicked people eventually die in this life, that’s also true of all the righteous. But David, inspired by the Holy Spirit, looks forward and sees a day when God’s justice will be fully realized. He looks forward to when, “the righteous will inherit the land and dwell in it forever” (vs. 29). David also describes what will eventually happen to the wicked. It is hard to imagine any words in any language He could have chosen which sound more like permanent, irreversible, eternal, death and annihilation (I have used bold to emphasize the most relevant words and phrases):

2 for like the grass they will soon wither, like green plants they will soon die away.

9 For those who are evil will be destroyed, but those who hope in the LORD will inherit the land.

10 A little while, and the wicked will be no more; though you look for them, they will not be found.

20 But the wicked will perish: Though the LORD's enemies are like the flowers of the field, they will be consumed, they will go up in smoke.

22 those the LORD blesses will inherit the land, but those he curses will be destroyed.

28 For the LORD loves the just and will not forsake his faithful ones. Wrongdoers will be completely destroyed; the offspring of the wicked will perish.

34 Hope in the LORD and keep his way. He will exalt you to inherit the land; when the wicked are destroyed, you will see it.

35 I have seen a wicked and ruthless man flourishing like a luxuriant native tree,
36 but he soon passed away and was no more; though I looked for him, he could not be found.

38 But all sinners will be destroyed; there will be no future for the wicked.

David says the wicked will wither and die away like grass, be destroyed, “be no more” so that even if you go looking for them you cannot find them, will perish, will go up in smoke like grass consumed in a fire, will be “completely destroyed”, will pass away and be no more, and will have no future. That sure sounds like annihilation!

 

[Aaron]

Aaron,

You asked me the following question:

“Tell me what the first death is?” (see comment #43)

To my knowledge the Bible never uses the phrase “first death”. However, it does use the phrase “second death”. I tried to answer your question in relation to the phrase “second death”. Here are some further thoughts on that:

Lol. What makes it the second death if there is not a first one?

 

[Mark Corbett]

Lol. What makes it the second death if there is not a first one?

Aaron, I feel like you have really taken my quote out of context. That quote comes from comment #65, and in that comment I go on to explain that I believe the "first death" is based on the "second death". My point, which perhaps I could have made more clear, is that "first death" is not a technical term in the Bible. I agree there is a first death, and the context of comment #65 makes that clear.

 

[Aaron]

Let’s look at the first use of the phrase “second death”:

. . .

It is significant that the first use of “second death” occurs in the context of a letter to a local church. The church in Smyrna was facing persecution. Jesus encourages them to remain faithful even if they are put to death for their faith. This refers to literal death (what else would it refer to?). Jesus then promises them that even if they die, He will give them life as a victor’s crown. He also promises that they will not be hurt by “the second death”. In verse 10, “death” clearly refers to a literal, physical death. In this context, that would be their “first death”.

It is the Second Death. Not just the second death for some. Some will not die before Christ appears. (And if you're a Dispy) some will not die before the Judgement. So it can't be their second death.

As it is the Second Death for everyone, though it has no power over the redeemed, there is a first death of which all have to be partakers. The first death is the death into which all men have entered in Adam: . . . and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned, Rom 5:12.

 

[Mark Corbett]

It is the Second Death. Not just the second death for some. Some will not die before Christ appears. (And if you're a Dispy) some will not die before the Judgement. So it can't be their second death.

Just because there is a rare exception to the rule, namely that the redeemed who are alive at the time of Christ will not experience death, does not mean that physical death is not the "first death" which is implied by the phrase "second death".

For example, the Bible says:

ESV Hebrews 9:27 And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment,

If you applied the same logic you used in your comment to this verse, we would have to think that "die once" does not refer to people physically dying since the redeemed who are alive at Christ's return will not "die once".

 

[Aaron]

Just because there is a rare exception to the rule, namely that the redeemed who are alive at the time of Christ will not experience death, does not mean that physical death is not the "first death" which is implied by the phrase "second death".

I didn't say that. I said that there are those (redeemed and unredeemed) who will not die physically before the Judgement. The Second Death would therefore be their first death.

 

[Mark Corbett]

I didn't say that. I said that there are those (redeemed and unredeemed) who will not die physically before the Judgement. The Second Death would therefore be their first death.

Does this really apply to the unredeemed?

Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed--
in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.
(1 Cor. 15:51-52 NIV)

The "we" is Christians.

I always thought that the unsaved on the earth at the end of this age would either be destroyed during the destruction of the earth and then raised to face judgment, or live on into the Millennium where they will either repent and be saved or eventually die, later be raised, and then face judgment. It's not clear to me that there is a single person who will experience the "second death" who did not first experience physical death, the "first death".

 

[Mark Corbett]

As we have passed 100 comments, I'm aware that this thread may soon be closed for further comments. I appreciate the wisdom of the administrators to often close threads to more comments around this point as in many cases the comments do seem to become less helpful at some point.

So at this time I would like to offer some resources for those who want to continue to study Conditional Immortality.

IMO, the best resource for learning about Conditional Immortality is Rethinking Hell, where I am an occasional volunteer contributor. This website and associated social media contains massive amounts of information about Conditional Immortality and Hell. Most questions people ask about this topic, and most Bible verses they find relevant, are discussed on the Rethinking Hell site.

The passages which, imo, are the most challenging for me and other Conditionalists to explain are found in Revelation 20 and Revelation 14. After much study I wrote a series on these passages and the topic of the "second death". You may find part 1 here.

Finally, I look forward, Lord willing, to discussing this topic and related topics in future threads right here on the BaptistBoard. Hell seems to be a "hot topic" these days!

May God Bless us all and guide us all into His truth!

p.s. I don't expect this to be the last post, I just want to get it in before the thread closes.

 

[Van]

Van, I have no idea what you're arguing with me about. If all you can do is tell me "no, that's not it", there's really no point in going on. I've made my point: death in the Bible does not mean separation. It means the end of life. I don't even know what your point is -- I thought I knew, but you assure me I'm wrong. Fine. Since you refuse to clarify, I'm done.

Sounds like a wise move, since you deny I presented the biblical basis for the fact being spiritually dead means the person is not united with Christ.

 

[The Biblicist]

Thank you. Unfortunately, although you quote my words, you don't quote me ever saying or implying that death equals nonexistence. In case there's any doubt, I don't believe that. I believe that the wicked will be killed, and that they will be destroyed, but I do not believe that the two things are the same, nor that they mean each other.

- pure semanitics as your definition of "end of life" is the cessation of what was living.

My first and primary definition of death is (as you've noticed) God's words at the institution of death. God did not define that as physical death; He said "YOU will return to dust," not "your body will return to dust."

You fail to deal with the context of the origin of man. It is the body that came from the ground not the plural "lives" (lit. Heb) that came from God. Moreover, Solomon says the body returns to the earth but the spirit returns to God. So you have no point as your point is a total disregard of the immediate and overall context of scripture.

Nonetheless, physical death is a genuine type of death, and shows us what death is like -- as the Teacher says in Eccl 3:18-19,

Again, you fail to interpret according to the over all context. Ecclesiastes also says the spirit of man returns to God thus physical death is a SEPARATION of the immaterial aspect of man's nature from the material aspect (which returns to dust). Thus again, physical death is SEPARATION. Moreover, you fail to take in the truth that God said that man would die "IN THE DAY HE ATE" and thus there is a spiritual SEPARATION from God "in the day he ate" DUE TO SIN just as Paul explains the "dead" condition of the physically alive Ephesians due to sin. Your position simply will not stand the test of proper exegesis.

God is teaching man by showing him death in physical terms, so that he will learn. Furthermore, I did not ONLY quote Genesis 3:19; I also quoted Genesis 3:22, in which God explains that because of sin man cannot "live forever" (which is a crucial part of my definition of death as a privation of animate life).

Genesis 3:22 does not help your position at all. Adam had sinned and he had died spiritually "in the day he ate" and now by partaking of the tree of life he would continue physically alive forever in a spiritually SEPARATED state from God, thus in an irrecoverable condition.

And finally, of course, I did not claim that this return to dust means that "death is a cessation of all personal existence."

And I never said that of physical death, but I said that of your ash heap false doctrine of the second death. I said in the final analysis your "ash" finality is "cessation of all personal existence" while your physical death position is the cessation of all physical personal existence.


That last claim is all yours, and not even a little bit from me. You are putting words in my mouth, words that do ALL of the work in "proving" your claim.

My second statement was not a definition of death at all, let alone the non-biblical words "eternal death." There I am explaining what the Bible says about the final end of the wicked.

The Bible calls it the "second DEATH" and you redefine it to be the "second ANNIHILATION" into ashes.

Because, you see, the Bible does not ONLY say that the wicked will die; it also predicts that they will be reduced to ashes. You're so devoted to your false belief in the eternal life of the wicked that you call "unbiblical" the words of 2 Peter 2:6.

2 Peter 2:6 says no such thing about the "second death" or about "Gehenna" but is speaking of the time of Lot and what happened to the physical structures and persons.

You've been given a chance, you took it, and you failed. Now, it's time for you to stop playing semantics, and actually debate the issues at hand.

your words fit yourself perfectly.

What I ACTUALLY say death means is "the end of life."

First, you don't understand the fact that Adam was given plural "lives" (Gen. 3:7 lit. Hebrew) and so with your forced limitations on "life" you cannot possibly understand, much less, interpret correctly the Biblical application of life. There is physical life, but there is also spiritual life or else there is no need to be "born of the Spirit" and what is born of Spirit "is spirit" a quickening (giving life).

You believe that when the Bible says the wicked will die, it MEANS that the wicked will retain all of the animation they were given at creation, but be separated from God. We have other differences, of course, but this is the one you've shared with me.

.

That is a far cry from what I believe Biblical death to be, as it does not even begin to explain what I believe about death. I have merely reduced it to its biblical essence (separation) to begin our discussion. But if you imagine that is all I believe or all the Bible teaches about death you are sorely mistaken.

I think you're right that I haven't done that. But so what? When the body dies, IT dies. When the body dies, the state of the soul doesn't define death -- the state of the BODY does, because it's the thing that's dead. That's why we call it physical death; it's death, of the body. We do not know what the death of the soul is like; we can't see it, and the Bible doesn't explain. But if we accept my definition, we do know that when the soul dies, its death would mean that its life ends. What happens in between is a different question.

You claim to be a dualist correct? So think about your own position concerning physical death! You admit that man cannot kill the body correct (Mt.10:28) and so the soul survives the death of the body. So physical death is not all about the body but it is obviously and clearly a SEPARATION of the body from the soul.

(What would your definition mean happens when the soul dies? This matters, because the Bible does speak of souls dying -- for example, James 5:20.)

Death has the basic meaning of separation. The "brother" who lives after the flesh is living in a condition of separation from the fellowship of God as one cannot walk "in the Spirit" and "after the flesh' at one and the same time. That is why we are commanded to put to death the old man which separates him from controlling our soul (mind, emotions, will) so that our daily life glorifies God. However, this is a whole different aspect.

 

[The Biblicist]

Biblicist, I appreciate your commitment to the Bible as our source of truth and understanding, as shown by your choice of a Forum Name and also by your focus on the text of the Bible in comments. One of the things I really like about BaptistForums is that most people here seem to share this high view of Scripture. I also interact on another Christian forum, but am often frustrated there because some (certainly not all, or even most) of the people on that forum have so little common ground with me that it is hard to talk with them. The issue is that they do not really treat the Bible as completely true and authoritative.

Now, concerning your post, I’m honestly trying to understand a little more clearly both what you are saying and how it relates to Conditional Immortality. To help me, I would like to ask if you agree with this quote from Wayne Grudem’s Systematic Theology (pg 481), especially the part which I but in red text:

Does Our Spirit Come Alive at Regeneration?

The human spirit is not something that is dead in an unbeliever but comes to life when someone trusts in Christ, because the Bible talks about unbelievers having a spirit that is obviously alive but is in rebellion against God – whether Sihon, King of Heshbon (Deut. 2:30: the Lord “hardened his spirit”), or Nebuchadnezzar (Dan 5:20: “his spirit was hardened so that he dealt proudly), or the unfaithful people of Israel (Ps 78:8: their “spirit was not faithful to God”). When Paul says, “Your spirit is are alive because of righteousness” (Rom 8:10), he apparently means “alive to God,” but he does not imply that our spirits were completely “dead” before, only that they were living out of fellowship with God and were dead in that sense.​

If you disagree with this, if you have time, can you explain how and why (I'm not saying Grudem is our authority, I disagree with him on a number of issues, I'm just using his explanation to try to clarify your view for myself).

As many theologians he has chosen wrong words to express a truth. The human spirit is not non-existent within the lost man which comes into existence at the new birth (Spurgeon believed this). This is what he means as he continues to say, "because the bible talks about unbelievers HAVING A SPIRIT that is obviously in rebellion against God."

You and your compadres have all ignored the Ephesian evidence and the contextual responses I have made that prove a literal spiritual separation between the lost man and God which is remedied by a literal and spiritual quickening of that literal human "spirit" (Jn. 3:6).

 

[The Biblicist]

As we have passed 100 comments, I'm aware that this thread may soon be closed for further comments. I appreciate the wisdom of the administrators to often close threads to more comments around this point as in many cases the comments do seem to become less helpful at some point.

So at this time I would like to offer some resources for those who want to continue to study Conditional Immortality.

IMO, the best resource for learning about Conditional Immortality is Rethinking Hell, where I am an occasional volunteer contributor. This website and associated social media contains massive amounts of information about Conditional Immortality and Hell. Most questions people ask about this topic, and most Bible verses they find relevant, are discussed on the Rethinking Hell site.

The passages which, imo, are the most challenging for me and other Conditionalists to explain are found in Revelation 20 and Revelation 14. After much study I wrote a series on these passages and the topic of the "second death". You may find part 1 here.

Finally, I look forward, Lord willing, to discussing this topic and related topics in future threads right here on the BaptistBoard. Hell seems to be a "hot topic" these days!

May God Bless us all and guide us all into His truth!

p.s. I don't expect this to be the last post, I just want to get it in before the thread closes.

When will you stop ignoring the evidences of spiritual separation placed before you and evidences that your interpretations have no contextual validity????? In order to have a discussion both sides must deal with the arguments and you have not done that. I repeated my posts but still neither you or your compadres will respond.

 

[wTanksley]

Sounds like a wise move, since you deny I presented the biblical basis for the fact being spiritually dead means the person is not united with Christ.

Van, I believe I stated that I don't understand what point you were attempting to make. That means I don't deny you did anything -- I simply don't know what you're talking about. I've tried to ask questions and everything, and you've not clarified.

With that said, though, I will add this: the OP does not stand or fall on what "being spiritually dead" means in your systematic theology. It stands or falls on what being dead means in those specific passages the OP cited, as well as what death versus life means as an eschatological punishment versus eschatological reward. The state of the wicked in this life is simply not the same as their future state.

 

[kyredneck]

So this is a tag team job?

There's nothing wrong with that. In fact I admire such cooperation. This is actually a very interesting thread. I'm happy to see the new faces with fresh views. It's good for all of us.

 

[kyredneck]

The doctrine of eternal torment

there's some torment

"destroyed" in hell?

I may have missed this being addressed earlier, but, I'm curious what your all's take on this is:

23 And in Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am in anguish in this flame.
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and Lazarus in like manner evil things: but now here he is comforted and thou art in anguish. Lu 16

 

[The Biblicist]

For example, Ephesians 2:1 Paul is speaking to phyically alive people who were nevertheless "dead" in a specific sense or in the sphere of "trespasses and sins."

Right. But you're not showing what you need to show: a passage in which the Bible defines death as separation, contrary to the dictionary/lexicon definition.

Of course I am not when you dissect this one sentence from the rest of the argument presented. However, the whole argument presented does demand that death involves spiritual separation.


God IS life, meaning the source of all life (Jn. 1:4). God IS light, meaning the source of all true light (Gen. 1:3, Jn. 1:4; etc.). God IS the source of all holiness. God IS the source of all love. The lost man is SEPARATED SPIRITUALLY from God and as such he is SEPARATED from all four of these characteristics which have their source in God Ephesians 4:18-19 demonstrates and describes that “dead” condition due to sin in Ephesians 2:1 that can only be reversed by the act of quickening (which has no reference to the body) and being “saved” which does not refer to the body and to be “created in Christ Jesus” which has no reference to the body as these are all past tense completed actions that refer to the “spirit” of man as Jesus said “what is born of the Spirit IS SPIRIT” (Jn. 3:6). Ephesians 4:18-19 topically describes the same previous lost condition first described in Ephesians 2:1-3.

Eph. 2:1 ¶ And you has he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

This previous “dead” state is further described in Ephesian 2:2-3

2 Wherein in time past you walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now works in the children of disobedience:
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

and Ephesians 4:18-19:

Eph. 4:18 Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:
19 Who being past feeling have given themselves over to lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.

1. God IS life – “alienated from the life of God – SEPARATION from God spiritually - dead

2. God IS light – “darkened” SEPARATION from God spiritually - dead

3. God IS love – “past feelings” SEPARATION from God spiritually - dead

4. God IS HOLY – “given over.,…all uncleanness” SEPARATION from God spirually - dead

The term "dead" cannot possibly be interpreted as metaphorical as the "spirit" of man is a realty and it is the "spirit" of man that is the object of this quickening (Jn. 3:6). Moreover, this term "dead" is further described in Ephesians 2;2-3 as a spiritual condition as it is in Ephesians 4:18-19. Moreover, it is further described as synonymous with being "saved"

Even when we were dead in sins, has quickened us together with Christ, (by grace you are saved

It is further described as a creative act of God that unites us spiritually with Christ which demands a previous SEPARATION from Christ or what is previusly described as being "dead in tresspasses and sins" and further described in verses 2-3 as spiritual union with Satan "working IN". It is this same cause "sin" that is described by the term SEPARATED or a separated state from God in Isaiah 59:2. It is this same death that occurred due to sin "in the day" Adam sinned and it was not his body that suffered death "in the day" he sinned. It was his spirit as it is the spirit that is quickened, or born from above which is absurd if it were not previously dead.

 

[The Biblicist]

Furthermore, later in Ephesians 4:18 they had been "alienated from the life of God" due to the very same issue (sinful nature) but were yet physically alive. In Isaiah 59:2 sin "separated" them from an omnipresent God.

These two passage do not define death. In fact, neither one mentions it at all. I'm not sure why you think they're important. Obviously they mention separation and alienation, but I never claimed those don't happen; I only claim that they don't exhaust the definition of what death is. In these two passages they aren't even used alongside death.

Yes, they do! The declaration of being "dead" and what is the cause of this death is stated in Ephesians 2:1 "in tresspasses and sins" while Ephesians 2:2-3 further defines and explains this "dead" condition as a spiritual relationship with Satan ("working in.....children of disobedience). Ephesians 4:18-19 further describes this "dead" state as separation from God as my previous post explains in detail.

 

[The Biblicist]

Adam in fact did die "in the day he ate" but not physically (Gen. 5:5).

What's your argument here? You're supposed to be showing that the Biblical definition of death is separation, and you're not presenting any case for that at all.

The point is that something did in fact die "in the day" he sinned and it was not his physical body. That only leaves some immateral aspect of his human nature. Jesus says that it is the "spirit" of man that is born of the Spirit and Paul describes this new birth from above by the word "quickened." He further describes it as a creative act of God that unites us spiritually "in Christ Jesus" (Eph. 2;10) as well as "saved" and all these are described by completed action verbs which actions have nothing to do with the physical body. Man's physical nature comes from the earth, but his spiritual nature comes directly from God and returns directly to God. It is this spiritual nature that "died" and is "quickened" (Jn. 3:6).

This death of the spiritual nature is described in terms of SEPARATION from God as Ephesians 2:2-3 and 4:18-19 make abundantly clear. "IN the day" he sinned he died, meaning his spiritual nature suffered spiritual SEPARATION from God who is the source of life, light, holiness and love and that separation is manifested by the very opposite characteristics (dead, dark, depraved and enmity) due to SEPARATION from the source of life, light, love, and holiness.

Sin is the stated cause of this death and sin is also the stated cause of SEPARATION from God (Isa. 59:2; Eph. 2:1-3; 4:18-19).

 

[The Biblicist]

Obviously, I disagree with your implicit claim that God's curse didn't include physical death along with total death,

I made no such "implicit claim." The curse of the law IS death. The "wages of sin IS death". Death is first spiritual separation from God as the source of life, light, love and holiness, second death is the separation of the material nature of man from his immaterial nature, the material returns to the dust and the immaterial returns to God. Death is ultimately separation of the whole man eternally in a place of conscious torment called Gehenna.

 

[The Biblicist]

The reversing of this state proves this. What is born of Spirit is NOT FLESH but the spirit, thus what is "quickened" is not flesh but the spirit of man.

Did you leave out a Bible reference? I think you might be referring to Col 2:13? If so, the contrast between "death" and "making alive" is self-explanatory; the Bible teaches that death is the end of life (and of animation), so the cure for death is to be made alive. It does NOT teach, here or elsewhere, that death means separation.

No, I did not omit any passage. The reversing of this "dead" state in Ephesians 2:1 which "dead" state is further explained in Ephesians 2:2-3 and 4:18-19 demands it is the actual spirit of man that is in this "dead" condition as what is "born of Spirit IS SPIRIT." This is what is "quickened...saved.....created in Christ Jesus" (Eph. 2:5,8,10) all completed action verbs describing the same thing that reverses the "dead" state due to tresspasses and sins. Hence, "dead" cannot mean either literally or metaphorically non-existence and neither can "quickening" mean existence, but something previously existing in a state of separation from God is brought back into spiritual union with God "created in Christ Jesus."