Spiritual understanding - part 8

[Covenanter]

The fundamental objection to spiritual interpretation/understanding of prophecy is the assumed doctrine of the second of Christ. Must be personal, visible to all and physical and glorious.

The unbelieving Jews saw Jesus, but did not see him, heard him but did not hear him. E.g. Isaiah 6, John 8, John 12, Acts 28,

Why insist on the physical? In what way was/will be John 14:3 fulfilled?

When Jesus spoke of coming in Luke 21:27 the context relates to the destruction. Can we believe him?

 

[Iconoclast]

The fundamental objection to spiritual interpretation/understanding of prophecy is the assumed doctrine of the second of Christ. Must be personal, visible to all and physical and glorious.

The unbelieving Jews saw Jesus, but did not see him, heard him but did not hear him. E.g. Isaiah 6, John 8, John 12, Acts 28,

Why insist on the physical? In what way was/will be John 14:3 fulfilled?

When Jesus spoke of coming in Luke 21:27 the context relates to the destruction. Can we believe him?

Some have pointed out that many scriptures about His first coming were literally fulfilled.
What they do not point out is the Kingdom instituted at that time was not literal and physical primarily.
It was a spiritual kingdom,literally instituted by the start of the formation of local NT. CHURCHES.......WHICH become the visible meeting place of kingdom members. The assemblies of individual Kingdom members being formed by the BRANCH....spoken of in Jeremiah 23, and Zech6.....become a physical expression of the spiritual temple prefigured by OT. Types.
The spiritual nature and reality was rejected by many in the first century, and many today.

 

[kyredneck]

From part 7, per Yeshua1:
“…All eyes shall see him per revelation, Jesus stated also that His coming will be as flash as lighting from east to the west, so will be something that will be recorded down as a BIG event….”
https://www.baptistboard.com/threads/spiritual-interpretation-pt-7.104950/page-7#post-2324327

This is so wrong and typical shallow, hasty, Dispensational misapplication [violence] of scripture. All one need do is to look DEEPER into scripture and let it interpret itself to get the true meaning of it:

26 If therefore they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the wilderness; go not forth: Behold, he is in the inner chambers; believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh forth from the east, and is seen even unto the west; so shall be the coming of the Son of man (the presence of the Son of Man; YLT). Mt 24

And he said unto the disciples, The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it. And they shall say to you, Lo, there! Lo, here! go not away, nor follow after them, for as the lightning, when it lighteneth out of the one part under the heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall the Son of man be in his day. Lu 17:22-24

Christ is telling them that 'in His day' [THAT BEING TODAY], He won't be 'in the desert' or in a 'secret chamber' or in Jerusalem or any other particular location on earth, He will be EVERYWHERE (as the lightning cometh forth from the east, and is seen even unto the west):

But thanks be unto God, who always leadeth us in triumph in Christ, and maketh manifest through us the savor of his knowledge in every place. 2 Cor 2:14

For the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the glory of Jehovah, as the waters cover the sea. Hab 2:14

And he shall stand, and shall feed his flock in the strength of Jehovah, in the majesty of the name of Jehovah his God: and they shall abide; for now shall he be great unto the ends of the earth. Micah 5:4

So shall they fear the name of Jehovah from the west, and his glory from the rising of the sun; for he will come as a rushing stream, which the breath of Jehovah driveth. Isa 59:19

For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name shall be great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense shall be offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name shall be great among the Gentiles, saith Jehovah of hosts. Mal 1:11

 

[kyredneck]

The spiritual nature and reality was rejected by many in the first century, and many today.

It was recognized very early on the Judaizing affect of Chiliasm.

Why the Early Church Finally Rejected Premillennialism

 

[Yeshua1]

The fundamental objection to spiritual interpretation/understanding of prophecy is the assumed doctrine of the second of Christ. Must be personal, visible to all and physical and glorious.

The unbelieving Jews saw Jesus, but did not see him, heard him but did not hear him. E.g. Isaiah 6, John 8, John 12, Acts 28,

Why insist on the physical? In what way was/will be John 14:3 fulfilled?

When Jesus spoke of coming in Luke 21:27 the context relates to the destruction. Can we believe him?

The scriptures plainly state that when Jesus comes back, there will the resurrection of the saints to be glorified, He will set foot upon the Earth, and that the earth shall worship him as Lord, so when did that happen AD 70?

 

[Yeshua1]

From part 7, per Yeshua1:
“…All eyes shall see him per revelation, Jesus stated also that His coming will be as flash as lighting from east to the west, so will be something that will be recorded down as a BIG event….”
https://www.baptistboard.com/threads/spiritual-interpretation-pt-7.104950/page-7#post-2324327

This is so wrong and typical shallow, hasty, Dispensational misapplication [violence] of scripture. All one need do is to look DEEPER into scripture and let it interpret itself to get the true meaning of it:

26 If therefore they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the wilderness; go not forth: Behold, he is in the inner chambers; believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh forth from the east, and is seen even unto the west; so shall be the coming of the Son of man (the presence of the Son of Man; YLT). Mt 24

And he said unto the disciples, The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it. And they shall say to you, Lo, there! Lo, here! go not away, nor follow after them, for as the lightning, when it lighteneth out of the one part under the heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall the Son of man be in his day. Lu 17:22-24

Christ is telling them that 'in His day' [THAT BEING TODAY], He won't be 'in the desert' or in a 'secret chamber' or in Jerusalem or any other particular location on earth, He will be EVERYWHERE (as the lightning cometh forth from the east, and is seen even unto the west):

But thanks be unto God, who always leadeth us in triumph in Christ, and maketh manifest through us the savor of his knowledge in every place. 2 Cor 2:14

For the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the glory of Jehovah, as the waters cover the sea. Hab 2:14

And he shall stand, and shall feed his flock in the strength of Jehovah, in the majesty of the name of Jehovah his God: and they shall abide; for now shall he be great unto the ends of the earth. Micah 5:4

So shall they fear the name of Jehovah from the west, and his glory from the rising of the sun; for he will come as a rushing stream, which the breath of Jehovah driveth. Isa 59:19

For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name shall be great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense shall be offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name shall be great among the Gentiles, saith Jehovah of hosts. Mal 1:11

Was the resurrection of all the saints in AD 70?

 

[Yeshua1]

It was recognized very early on the Judaizing affect of Chiliasm.

Why the Early Church Finally Rejected Premillennialism

The majority of the ECF saw it pre mil, and it took the views of Augustine who saw prophecy as spiritual and fulfilled in RCC to have that switched and changed!

 

[Covenanter]

The scriptures plainly state that when Jesus comes back, there will the resurrection of the saints to be glorified, He will set foot upon the Earth, and that the earth shall worship him as Lord, so when did that happen AD 70?

Was the resurrection of all the saints in AD 70?

The majority of the ECF saw it pre mil, and it took the views of Augustine who saw prophecy as spiritual and fulfilled in RCC to have that switched and changed!

You post without reading what you're replying to, and without referencing any Scriptures. You would benefit greatly by reading Scripture and the carefully reasoned posts of others.

Just read and look up Scripture without adding to the numbers of posts.

James 3:1

 

[Yeshua1]

You post without reading what you're replying to, and without referencing any Scriptures. You would benefit greatly by reading Scripture and the carefully reasoned posts of others.

Just read and look up Scripture without adding to the numbers of posts.

James 3:1

Any comment on those posts then?

 

[Covenanter]

Any comment on those posts then?

No. You don't read my comments when I have replied to you.

 

[Iconoclast]

Any comment on those posts then?

He just commented on your post saying they are useless because they have no scripture.

 

[Iconoclast]

The assemblies of individual Kingdom members being formed by the BRANCH....spoken of in Jeremiah 23, and Zech6.....become a physical expression of the spiritual temple prefigured by OT. Types.
The spiritual nature and reality was rejected by many in the first century, and many today.....

From KIt Culver;

The concept of Israel’s king as Yahweh’s son becomes explicit with David and the Davidic Covenant (2 Samuel 7:12ff; 1 Chronicles 22:6-10, 28:1-6; cf. Psalm 89:18-28), thereby providing a crucial development in messianic revelation. Moreover, the intimate connection between Father and regal son is suggested by God’s bestowal of His Spirit (10:9-10). While the Spirit’s presence was basic to the judges’ rule, this endowment is invested with further meaning when applied to Israel’s kings as sons of God.

By bringing the ark to Jerusalem David had symbolically enthroned Yahweh on Mount Zion, and he had done so through his labors as the Lord’s chosen king-priest. Though David couldn’t know it at that time, this action provided the foundational context for God’s covenant with him, specifically as that covenant would contribute to the developing revelation of redemption in Christ.[/QUOTE]

In ushering in the eschatological kingdom, David’s promised Son would likewise establish Yahweh’s unqualified rule by His work as king-priest (cf. Psalm 110; Isaiah 2:1-4, 52:1-10; Micah 3:1-4:7; Zechariah 2:1-3:10 with Revelation 11:15-12:10; etc.).

Thus the promise of a Davidic seed embraced both sides of the covenant: In him Yahweh would build David’s house, but he would also build a house for Yahweh. The perpetuity of David’s royal house, throne, and kingdom were to be realized in this son, but he would likewise secure for Yahweh a royal dynasty and everlasting kingdom. According to God’s word, Solomon constructed for Him a physical sanctuary in Jerusalem; the true referent of the seed promise would first build a dwelling for the Lord in Himself (John 1:1-14), and then through himself in an innumerable multitude of royal offspring (cf. Jeremiah 33:14-26 with 1 Corinthians 3:16-17; Ephesians 2:11-22; 1 Peter 2:1-10; Revelation 5:1-10).

 

[Iconoclast]

When viewed in connection with the Davidic Covenant, Psalm 110 introduces a priestly component to the covenant and its prophetic concern for David’s house and kingdom, even as it suggests the priestly quality of David’s own kingship. This, together with the recognition of David’s status as the epitomizing Israelite, leads William Dumbrell to observe regarding Psalm 110:


KIt Culver.
“In its contemplation of a priestly kingship, the psalm appears to suggest that in the person of the king, the demand contemplated for all Israel in Exod. 19:3b-6 has been embodied. Only kingship of that character, the psalm seems to imply in its second half, will guarantee the political extension of the Jerusalem kingdom, which it anticipates (Ps. 110:5-7). David’s line is thus to reflect, in the person of the occupant of the throne of Israel, the values which the Sinai covenant had required of the nation as a whole.” (Covenant and Creation)
In God’s developing revelation of His redemption in Christ, the two primary streams of Old Testament messianism (kingly and priestly) notably converge in the person of David. And having come together in him, they are projected onto the son promised in the covenant. What is not directly evident in the covenant itself is made explicit by its connection with Psalm 110: The Davidic Branch, in whom Yahweh had determined to establish David’s throne and kingdom forever, would exercise His everlasting reign in the context of a perpetual priesthood.
In fulfilling the Davidic kingship (cf. 110:1 with Matthew 22:41-45), the Davidic Branch would also fulfill the kingship of Melchizedek – the king of peace (“Salem”) and priest of God Most High (cf. 110:4 with Hebrews 5:5-10 and Romans 8:33-34 with Hebrews 7:1-8:6; cf. also Revelation 5:4-6). As the ultimate David, this son would establish Yahweh’s kingdom and secure its peace through the conquest of all its enemies. But having done so, He would go on to build Yahweh’s house, ruling forever as a priest upon His throne (Zechariah 6:9-15).

This principle, first introduced with the tabernacle (cf. Genesis 15:13-14 with Exodus 11:1-2, 12:35-36), becomes in the biblical storyline a foundational kingdom theme that eventually finds its ultimate fulfillment in Yahweh’s true house composed of men from every tribe, tongue and nation (cf. Haggai 2:1-9 with Zechariah 6:9-15; also Matthew 16:13-18 with 1 Peter 2:1-10). And so, even as the text records David’s ingathering of the “precious value” of the subjects of his kingdom for use in building the Lord’s holy dwelling, it does so conscious that it is pointing prophetically to the day when David’s greater Son would Himself repeat and fulfill His father’s work (cf. Amos 9:11-15 with Acts 15:1-18).

 

[Iconoclast]

Set in the context of his dedication of that sanctuary, Solomon’s prayer makes a significant contribution to the developing concept of sacred space. For, viewed from the standpoint of the overall trajectory and goal of salvation history (of which they’re a part), Solomon’s actions reflect back on God’s ancient promise to restore all things to Himself. In that sense, his prayer presupposed and drew upon everything that had gone before it – not merely the Davidic Covenant, but the Mosaic, Abrahamic and Adamic foundations of that covenant.
- Thus Solomon opened his dedicatory prayer with praise to Yahweh for His faithfulness in fulfilling His promise to David (8:23-24).
139
- As the Lord had “kept covenant” by seeing to it that David’s son built Him a house in Jerusalem (2 Samuel 7:13), so Solomon petitioned Him to show the same faithfulness with regard to His promise to build David’s house (1 Kings 8:25-26).
- Solomon’s opening praise and petition emphasize the temporal aspects of the Davidic Covenant, but verses 8:27-30 show that he also recognized that the covenant and its promises transcended their earthly expressions: The house he had built for Yahweh was nothing more than a material representation of His true dwelling place. Solomon understood that, as the covenant looked to a Davidic son beyond himself, so the sanctuary God had appointed that son to build transcended the physical temple in Jerusalem.
- The majority of Solomon’s prayer was concerned with the interplay between repentance and deliverance/restoration (ref. 8:30-53). Essentially, Solomon was petitioning Yahweh to deal with His covenant people in accordance with righteous mercy, and this petition has great importance when viewed in relation to the Davidic Covenant and the dedication of the temple:
Here the covenant son of David was standing as intercessor before Yahweh in the place where He had determined to meet with His people and pleading with Him to forgive and restore them to Himself as they turned to Him in humble, penitent faith.


The salvation-historical significance of Solomon’s petition is all the more profound in that he extended its reach beyond the people of Israel to the nations of the earth (vv. 41-43). Solomon sought for all mankind the same merciful reception at the Lord’s sanctuary that he sought for Israel. He prayed that the Lord would forgive and receive all who came to Him in repentant and dependent faith.

In Solomon’s prophetic conception, Yahweh’s house – built by the son of David – was to be a place of forgiveness, cleansing and refuge for all the nations (cf. Isaiah 56:1-8 with 11:10 and Zechariah 6:9-15; also John 2:13-21, 4:19-24 with 1 Peter 2:4-6)
Thus, when the exiles returned to Jerusalem under Cyrus as Yahweh promised and began to rebuild the temple, the post-exile prophets (Haggai and Zechariah) were emphatic that that work didn’t signal an impending restoration of the kingdom of Israel. Both indicated that the temple rebuilding process was only another prefiguration of what the Lord had promised David (Haggai 2:1-9). The Davidic Covenant specified that David’s seed would build Yahweh’s house; no such seed existed at the time of the rebuilding of the temple and, based on the Lord’s pronouncement to Jehoiachin, it seemed no such seed could arise in the future. Nevertheless, Zechariah insisted that the Davidic son (“Branch”) would indeed come and that He would build the Lord’s house as a priest-king – the priest according to the order of Melchizedek (cf. Zechariah 6:9-15; Psalm 110).

 

[Yeshua1]

He just commented on your post saying they are useless because they have no scripture.

You can have theology given apart from the scriptures, as when I give my viewpoints, it is related th what is in the scriptures, its just that those holding to either pretierism or spirtualozing the scriptures would reject....

 

[Covenanter]

You can have theology given apart from the scriptures, as when I give my viewpoints, it is related th what is in the scriptures, its just that those holding to either pretierism or spirtualozing the scriptures would reject....

WOW!!??!!??!!??

OF course it is - remotely related to the Scriptures I & others have posted.

BUT - your theology apart from the Scriptures is an expression of Biblical ignorance. Your namesake, aka the Lord Jesus Christ, lived the Scriptures & quoted them freely. Even Satan used Scriptural arguments:

Matthew 4:3 And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread.
4. But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
5. Then the devil taketh him up into the holy city, and setteth him on a pinnacle of the temple,
6. and saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.​

 

[Covenanter]

The fundamental objection to spiritual interpretation/understanding of prophecy is the assumed doctrine of the second [coming] of Christ. Must be personal, visible to all and physical and glorious.

.... and, of course they claim it must be future - to us - not just future at the time of writing.

The only detailed instruction Jesus gives about his yet future coming is:

Luke 17:
33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. 34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. 35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. 36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.​

There's a LOT of money available to those who write books about future prophecy, & not much for those who see the explicit prophecies fulfilled in the AD 70 destruction.

Prophecy can & should be tested. John gave prophecies regarding Jesus:

And many resorted unto him, and said, John did no miracle: but all things that John spake of this man were true. John 10:41​

Please read Deut. 18:15-19 regarding Jesus;
and then 20-22 regarding false prophets.

In Mat. 24, Mark 13, Luke 17 & 21 & in various last week parables & warnings, Jesus gave explicit prophecies, often with such a clear time indication that his enemies understood that he was prophesying against them. That's why they killed him. They understood the prophecies though they rejected them. And they remembered them decades later, asserting that Jesus was a false prophet. 2 Peter 3.

3 knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, 4 and saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.​

Did those scoffers also fall asleep, "knowing" that Jesus' prophecies were false? No! They suffered swift destruction. 2 Peter 2:1

Jesus' prophecies were understood, doubted, & challenged; & were fulfilled in detail in AD 70. While we don't have an inspired eye-witness account, the historical evidence is there.

The futurist's prophecies are worthless - they are attempts to interpret prophecy in a way that CANNOT be tested. The claim to relate the signs in the Olivet prophecies to current events has consistently failed.

Deut. 18:21 And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the Lord hath not spoken? 22 when a prophet speaketh in the name of the Lord, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the Lord hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.​

 

[Yeshua1]

.... and, of course they claim it must be future - to us - not just future at the time of writing.

The only detailed instruction Jesus gives about his yet future coming is:

Luke 17:
33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. 34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. 35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. 36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.​

There's a LOT of money available to those who write books about future prophecy, & not much for those who see the explicit prophecies fulfilled in the AD 70 destruction.

Prophecy can & should be tested. John gave prophecies regarding Jesus:

And many resorted unto him, and said, John did no miracle: but all things that John spake of this man were true. John 10:41​

Please read Deut. 18:15-19 regarding Jesus;
and then 20-22 regarding false prophets.

In Mat. 24, Mark 13, Luke 17 & 21 & in various last week parables & warnings, Jesus gave explicit prophecies, often with such a clear time indication that his enemies understood that he was prophesying against them. That's why they killed him. They understood the prophecies though they rejected them. And they remembered them decades later, asserting that Jesus was a false prophet. 2 Peter 3.

3 knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, 4 and saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.​

Did those scoffers also fall asleep, "knowing" that Jesus' prophecies were false? No! They suffered swift destruction. 2 Peter 2:1

Jesus' prophecies were understood, doubted, & challenged; & were fulfilled in detail in AD 70. While we don't have an inspired eye-witness account, the historical evidence is there.

The futurist's prophecies are worthless - they are attempts to interpret prophecy in a way that CANNOT be tested. The claim to relate the signs in the Olivet prophecies to current events has consistently failed.

Deut. 18:21 And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the Lord hath not spoken? 22 when a prophet speaketh in the name of the Lord, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the Lord hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.​

When did the resurrection of the saints, and the setting up of the Kingdom with Jesus as King ober the earth happen back then?

 

[Covenanter]

When did the resurrection of the saints, and the setting up of the Kingdom with Jesus as King ober the earth happen back then?

If you actually read my posts, without blinders on, you would see that I believe in a future coming of Jesus for resurrection & judgment, when he will establish the New Heaven & New Earth.

Jesus in his Olivet prophecy taught that he would come for the destruction of Jerusalem & the temple in the lifetime of the generation that so bitterly opposed & rejected him. The must be a sense in which he came or was present in the clouds at that time, or his prophecy failed & the scoffers were vindicated.

Daniel saw Jesus come in the clouds - when he ascended in victory.

Dan. 7:13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. 14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.​

Mark 14:62 And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.​

He is presently reigning as King of kings & Lord of lords, & he is present with his people:

Mat. 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. 19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 20 teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.​

We are not struggling without him at present - he is with us constantly. As he said:

John 14:Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. 2 In my Father’s house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. 4 And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.​

There is a whole spiritual realm you & others are denying. Jesus is with us constantly, & all the powers or earth & hell are subject to him. Because he is longsuffering, & has a redeemed people to save he allows wickedness to continue. We are his witnesses - ambassadors - on earth.

 

[Iconoclast]

You can have theology given apart from the scriptures, as when I give my viewpoints, it is related th what is in the scriptures, its just that those holding to either pretierism or spirtualozing the scriptures would reject....

You make unfounded claims constantly.
No one cares if you are on the right side of the issue or the wrong side of the issue because you do not establish it scripturally..
If Kyred or Covenanter writes a sentence or two that will be after they posted a dozen verses or so.
I would have to do a whole thread on your misguided ideas....
Do not speak about anyone " spiritualizing anything when you were silent on the verses dealing with the sun, moon, and and stars.
I Could start a thread on your responses...or rather your lack of real responses, but you would not like it.
These men have offered you verse after verse which you do not respond to.