Do we properly handle the Problem of Evil in the church

[Steven Yeadon]

I'll give my story of how I came to defeat my own Problem of Evil and then I'll get to some questions.

I had wrestled with the notion that God was the final monster After All for years as a self-avowed Christian with no faith.

The crux of the matter was a question I couldn't let go: Can I forgive God for what he has done to me and others, especially children, who can die in sometimes torturous ways? Of course, I was dead wrong in my frame of mind. God shouldn't ask for anyone's forgiveness when He takes away or authors woe. He is doing the right thing, always. He loves all of His creations, especially His children who Believe in Him. He wants to bless all of us.

The ending of the Book of Job convinced me of the biblical answer at all times though, that God is above me entirely and need not be counseled on how to run the universe. To think otherwise invites an explosion from my Creator on how small and foolish I am in the darkest hour I can imagine for myself.

Despite knowing the answer already, from the bible even, I just couldn't accept it. Instead I thought a lot about whether God really loves me or even whether He really existed, all in the vanity and futility of my mind. After years of wrestling with the subject, which spurred several mental journeys through nightmarish emotional pain, one question haunted my mind: How can I believe in my God when there are children dying everyday in the world. This singular problem: that of children dying or going through torturous pain, or dare I admit back then: both, haunted me often for several years. In my perplexed emotional shock I kept asking myself one question that seemed like gibberish in my more reasoned moments: Will I believe in and defend the Jesus of the children with everything I have?

By this I mean, will I defend the Jesus of myself when I was a child and the Jesus of the other children who sang "Father Abraham," "Yay, Jesus Loves Me" and many other very innocent children's songs. I remembered the first picture of God I drew and how I thought He was a kind man in the clouds. I was lost in a romanticized vision of what it means to be a child and could not seem to get over the innocence I imagined it gave. When my mind slid into the territory of thinking about children dying of Leukemia, of those who make a wish through the Make a Wish Foundation, of those who go to a Ronald McDonald house, of abused children, of children tortured to death by criminals, and, beyond my ability to cope, was the thought of those children dying without the comforts we have in undeveloped parts of the world.

What really pushed me over the edge was that I took an Christian apologetics class on "The Problem of Evil." There I read from works on the Holocaust and also a chapter called "Rebellion" in the Brothers Karamazov. My ammunition against these attacks from unbelievers were logical arguments with no emotional pull to them. Without my clever arguments I became convinced in my own mind that the injustices and pains of this world made no sense. That to me, even eternity in heaven and hell could not explain to me why such horrible things are allowed to happen in this world. In the end, I wanted to put God on trial for all the things that have happened to humanity since we have existed.

Finally a year ago, I became a Christian with faith down to my heart. Shortly after this, I accepted on blind faith that what I knew to be true from the bible about the Problem of Evil and living while suffering was true. Almost all of my doubts went away instantly. I was done with my emotional hell in a bottle at last and joyful beyond belief. I finally started to enact powerful scriptures like (James 1:2-4) and (Hebrews 12:4-13). I saw them as pure, wonderful sayings from heaven, and I decided to apply them and continue on with life each day at a time.

My story concluded, I have some major issues looking back: Do we in the church make the Problem of Evil stronger and worse in any way? I bet we do without even noticing it! Is the Jesus we offer our children the Jesus of the bible? Do we sabotage our children with a feel good Jesus that takes all the pain we are to suffer out of the equation? Is Christian apologetics meaningful against the problem of pain when the Books of Job, James, and Hebrews, among many others, make clear that we beat this one with faith? For that matter the armor of God quenches the devil's fiery darts, of which the problem of pain is likely many, with faith. Why do I come such a long way so suddenly when I come to heartfelt faith, but so many others drop out of the faith due to these emotionally painful questions?

 

[Baptist Believer]

Do we in the church make the Problem of Evil stronger and worse in any way?

Contemporary Western society diminishes the reality of evil and death in the public consciousness because it does not fit with our views of human progress and the inherent "goodness" of humankind. One of the great ironies of education since World War II is the use of The Diary of Anne Frank in schools, and they emphasize a certain sentence as summing up the main theme of the book:

“In spite of everything I still believe that people are really good at heart.”​

That was emphasized back when the diary was required reading in English class in my high school. The teacher asked me what I thought of that statement. I said, "I think it is naive. Not that long after she wrote it, she was sent to a concentration camp, where she died at the hands of people who were not 'good at heart'." As you can imagine, that didn't go over well with the teacher.

After that little blow up in class where the teacher forcefully suggested that I had reading comprehension problems, I went back and reread that section. Here's the quote in context:

“In spite of everything I still believe that people are really good at heart. I simply can’t build up my hopes on a foundation consisting of confusion, misery, and death. I see the world gradually being turned into a wilderness, I hear the ever approaching thunder, which will destroy us too, I can feel the sufferings of millions and yet, if I look up into the heavens, I think that it will all come right, that this cruelty too will end, and that peace and tranquility will return again.”​

Even as a teenager without much knowledge of the Christian faith, I realized she was probably talking about God destroying evil in some intuitive way that was inspired by her Jewish heritage. It is a profound passage, but not the way it is usually taught.

We have a culture that fundamentally doesn't believe that God is at work preparing it for complete redemption. We have little consciousness of God's judgment that will surely come upon those who do evil among us. We tend to think that people "get away" with things if they don't face the full consequences of them before their life ends. But the Christian message says something else.

Do we sabotage our children with a feel good Jesus that takes all the pain we are to suffer out of the equation?

That happens a lot in Christian circles, and it is extremely popular and profitable. I was in Houston on Wednesday evening and got caught in a traffic jam coming out of the "Lakewood" megachurch's (Joel Osteen) evening meeting. I saw all of those people pouring out of that place who have been listening to someone who tells them what they think they want to hear.

Is Christian apologetics meaningful against the problem of pain when the Books of Job, James, and Hebrews, among many others, make clear that we beat this one with faith?

I don't know if we "beat" the problem of pain, but I think we can find God in the middle of it, or at least on the other side of it. A lot of people forget that the gospels themselves are a testament to a good Man suffering (Jesus) and His ultimate vindication by God. Those who are His disciples should expect nothing less.

Why do I come such a long way so suddenly when I come to heartfelt faith, but so many others drop out of the faith due to these emotionally painful questions?

In short, the grace of God.

The longer answer is that you understood the message of the scripture and the Spirit walked you through it.

 

[Yeshua1]

I'll give my story of how I came to defeat my own Problem of Evil and then I'll get to some questions.

I had wrestled with the notion that God was the final monster After All for years as a self-avowed Christian with no faith.

The crux of the matter was a question I couldn't let go: Can I forgive God for what he has done to me and others, especially children, who can die in sometimes torturous ways? Of course, I was dead wrong in my frame of mind. God shouldn't ask for anyone's forgiveness when He takes away or authors woe. He is doing the right thing, always. He loves all of His creations, especially His children who Believe in Him. He wants to bless all of us.

The ending of the Book of Job convinced me of the biblical answer at all times though, that God is above me entirely and need not be counseled on how to run the universe. To think otherwise invites an explosion from my Creator on how small and foolish I am in the darkest hour I can imagine for myself.

Despite knowing the answer already, from the bible even, I just couldn't accept it. Instead I thought a lot about whether God really loves me or even whether He really existed, all in the vanity and futility of my mind. After years of wrestling with the subject, which spurred several mental journeys through nightmarish emotional pain, one question haunted my mind: How can I believe in my God when there are children dying everyday in the world. This singular problem: that of children dying or going through torturous pain, or dare I admit back then: both, haunted me often for several years. In my perplexed emotional shock I kept asking myself one question that seemed like gibberish in my more reasoned moments: Will I believe in and defend the Jesus of the children with everything I have?

By this I mean, will I defend the Jesus of myself when I was a child and the Jesus of the other children who sang "Father Abraham," "Yay, Jesus Loves Me" and many other very innocent children's songs. I remembered the first picture of God I drew and how I thought He was a kind man in the clouds. I was lost in a romanticized vision of what it means to be a child and could not seem to get over the innocence I imagined it gave. When my mind slid into the territory of thinking about children dying of Leukemia, of those who make a wish through the Make a Wish Foundation, of those who go to a Ronald McDonald house, of abused children, of children tortured to death by criminals, and, beyond my ability to cope, was the thought of those children dying without the comforts we have in undeveloped parts of the world.

What really pushed me over the edge was that I took an Christian apologetics class on "The Problem of Evil." There I read from works on the Holocaust and also a chapter called "Rebellion" in the Brothers Karamazov. My ammunition against these attacks from unbelievers were logical arguments with no emotional pull to them. Without my clever arguments I became convinced in my own mind that the injustices and pains of this world made no sense. That to me, even eternity in heaven and hell could not explain to me why such horrible things are allowed to happen in this world. In the end, I wanted to put God on trial for all the things that have happened to humanity since we have existed.

Finally a year ago, I became a Christian with faith down to my heart. Shortly after this, I accepted on blind faith that what I knew to be true from the bible about the Problem of Evil and living while suffering was true. Almost all of my doubts went away instantly. I was done with my emotional hell in a bottle at last and joyful beyond belief. I finally started to enact powerful scriptures like (James 1:2-4) and (Hebrews 12:4-13). I saw them as pure, wonderful sayings from heaven, and I decided to apply them and continue on with life each day at a time.

My story concluded, I have some major issues looking back: Do we in the church make the Problem of Evil stronger and worse in any way? I bet we do without even noticing it! Is the Jesus we offer our children the Jesus of the bible? Do we sabotage our children with a feel good Jesus that takes all the pain we are to suffer out of the equation? Is Christian apologetics meaningful against the problem of pain when the Books of Job, James, and Hebrews, among many others, make clear that we beat this one with faith? For that matter the armor of God quenches the devil's fiery darts, of which the problem of pain is likely many, with faith. Why do I come such a long way so suddenly when I come to heartfelt faith, but so many others drop out of the faith due to these emotionally painful questions?

Big problem is that we have pretty much bought into that God wants to give to us ease/comfort/pleasures, as in health and wealth prosperity , but the truth is that he is much more interested into making us more into into the image of Christ...

We also have applying man views on evil and problems, as we insist on there being fairness and that God is not right, not fair etc...

 

[Aaron]

I think the church handles the "problem of evil" quite well most of the time. Looking at Creation from God's point of view (and he is no respecter of persons), all have sinned and deserve judgment and misery. But His love for us is manifest not in the notion that He must relieve us of suffering, but in the fact that did not spare His own Son any of that judgment and misery.

Rom 8:32: He that spared not his own Son . . .

The "problem of evil" as you have described it, is really a problem with your notions. You view people as basically good and innocent, and they're not. Not even the children. And that is why you have ( or had ) a tough time as thinking of God as just when He brings calamity on those who are seemingly innocent.

 

[Steven Yeadon]

The "problem of evil" as you have described it, is really a problem with your notions. You view people as basically good and innocent, and they're not. Not even the children. And that is why you have ( or had ) a tough time as thinking of God as just when He brings calamity on those who are seemingly innocent.

Yes that is a part of my past problem that you put in stark terms. I always wrestled with the feeling of ruined innocence or innocence under murderous attack. However, a year ago I came to peace with the fact children are not innocent entirely. That said, I feel a definite tug back towards "something" that puts children in a special category compared to adults. I get this from the fact Jesus has special affection for young children because they embody the Kingdom in a way foreign to most people (Matthew 19:14). As people who embody the Kingdom in some way, children do have a kind of innocence about them that is beautiful, but it is unique to the kind of romantic innocence we often give children it seems. Children cannot be viewed through rosy glasses when you have to discipline them for instance.

That said, Jesus Christ is more innocent than a newborn baby. He shows that a higher innocence is not found in a garden, but is found in someone who knows good and evil and chooses to always obey our heavenly Father's will. So, when the Romans crucified Him, they might as well have put a toddler on a cross to better understand their crime.

That said, I still need to understand God's judgments that afflicts cities all across the earth (Amos 3:6). People are not inherently innocent even when we call them such in our language. Innocent bystanders are in fact rare and are only so because of their hearts. God's history of judgment upon cities and towns, that even includes the death of children, shows that any understanding of pain must understand God's justice. A justice that still seems alien to me, since it feels in some way to go too far, even though His justice is perfect.

Here I have to explain my own situation and why this subject captivated me for so long: I am a very disabled man with many chronic pain disorders. I have had to live at 9/10 pain as normal for almost a year. Reduced to weeping everyday from my pain. I am doing much better now, but a day in which I stay at 3/10 pain with a single hiccup to 5/10 or 6/10 pain is a good day. To me following and loving God on faith, despite the screams of my flesh, is normal. That said, I would recommend this path to anyone if it meant eternal life, with one change: be a heartfelt Christian on faith the first time you hear the Gospel! But I do see the cosmic horror of other people, let alone multitudes, having to live the same life.

I think the church handles the "problem of evil" quite well most of the time.

I must disagree with you though, I believe the problem of pain is handled terribly in the church from my own view point. Mainly because we do not emphasize the right verses when we console those in pain. The only solace came from reading the internet articles online that challenged me to live like a true saint, and also the consolation of one of the deacons who did point me to the right verses like "count it all joy.".

Next, don't we romanticize children in the church just like the secular and pagan cultures? I just fail to see where we do a better job than the culture around us in teaching our children about how to live a toilsome life, that often gets much worse, while putting God first.

Also, while you are certainly correct in saying not everyone is innocent and to think so invites danger, there is also something tragic about pain. Let us go to Jesus first. Is any single one of Jesus' pains not a tragedy beyond all words? Let alone his stripes and bruises. Are not the crimes and pains committed against his friends and flock supposed to quicken our blood as much as attacks upon Him? If not we will be very surprised, in likely a negative way, when we get to the torturous fate of those who committed such crimes without repentance.

Also why does the Law stipulate blood for blood, tooth for tooth for those convicted in court? To me this seems natural because suffering has its own calculus of fair retribution. Pain just works out that way if you only take it to a reasonable conclusion and don't hold resentment in your heart.

Oh well, I'm emotionally spent for now, I'll come back and think some more with all of you later.

 

[Steven Yeadon]

I must say one more thing though. While the problem of evil can be interpreted in the Old Testament. Such a problem never seems to occur in the New Testament. The story of Jesus Christ and those that follow Him into a finite hell for an eternal reward.

Lastly, hell itself is our new problem of evil in the New Testament to many Christians it seems to me. We do not understand why our loved ones can die and go there, why the singers or actors or athletes we like end up there, and often the justice of it depends on believing on faith in God's love and goodness and fairness. We do not understand how it is perfectly just that these people and many more spend eternity in torment, but because God is doing so, we can be assured that it is right and good and fair and just. However, the tragedy never seems lost to God (Philippians 3:18, Ezekiel 18).

 

[Yeshua1]

Yes that is a part of my past problem that you put in stark terms. I always wrestled with the feeling of ruined innocence or innocence under murderous attack. However, a year ago I came to peace with the fact children are not innocent entirely. That said, I feel a definite tug back towards "something" that puts children in a special category compared to adults. I get this from the fact Jesus has special affection for young children because they embody the Kingdom in a way foreign to most people (Matthew 19:14). As people who embody the Kingdom in some way, children do have a kind of innocence about them that is beautiful, but it is unique to the kind of romantic innocence we often give children it seems. Children cannot be viewed through rosy glasses when you have to discipline them for instance.

That said, Jesus Christ is more innocent than a newborn baby. He shows that a higher innocence is not found in a garden, but is found in someone who knows good and evil and chooses to always obey our heavenly Father's will. So, when the Romans crucified Him, they might as well have put a toddler on a cross to better understand their crime.

That said, I still need to understand God's judgments that afflicts cities all across the earth (Amos 3:6). People are not inherently innocent even when we call them such in our language. Innocent bystanders are in fact rare and are only so because of their hearts. God's history of judgment upon cities and towns, that even includes the death of children, shows that any understanding of pain must understand God's justice. A justice that still seems alien to me, since it feels in some way to go too far, even though His justice is perfect.

Here I have to explain my own situation and why this subject captivated me for so long: I am a very disabled man with many chronic pain disorders. I have had to live at 9/10 pain as normal for almost a year. Reduced to weeping everyday from my pain. I am doing much better now, but a day in which I stay at 3/10 pain with a single hiccup to 5/10 or 6/10 pain is a good day. To me following and loving God on faith, despite the screams of my flesh, is normal. That said, I would recommend this path to anyone if it meant eternal life, with one change: be a heartfelt Christian on faith the first time you hear the Gospel! But I do see the cosmic horror of other people, let alone multitudes, having to live the same life.



I must disagree with you though, I believe the problem of pain is handled terribly in the church from my own view point. Mainly because we do not emphasize the right verses when we console those in pain. The only solace came from reading the internet articles online that challenged me to live like a true saint, and also the consolation of one of the deacons who did point me to the right verses like "count it all joy.".

Next, don't we romanticize children in the church just like the secular and pagan cultures? I just fail to see where we do a better job than the culture around us in teaching our children about how to live a toilsome life, that often gets much worse, while putting God first.

Also, while you are certainly correct in saying not everyone is innocent and to think so invites danger, there is also something tragic about pain. Let us go to Jesus first. Is any single one of Jesus' pains not a tragedy beyond all words? Let alone his stripes and bruises. Are not the crimes and pains committed against his friends and flock supposed to quicken our blood as much as attacks upon Him? If not we will be very surprised, in likely a negative way, when we get to the torturous fate of those who committed such crimes without repentance.

Also why does the Law stipulate blood for blood, tooth for tooth for those convicted in court? To me this seems natural because suffering has its own calculus of fair retribution. Pain just works out that way if you only take it to a reasonable conclusion and don't hold resentment in your heart.

Oh well, I'm emotionally spent for now, I'll come back and think some more with all of you later.

Jesus was/is God Incarnate, so His very bature as such would be beyond what we can fully grasp, as he is holy in the God sense of that term!

 

[Yeshua1]

I must say one more thing though. While the problem of evil can be interpreted in the Old Testament. Such a problem never seems to occur in the New Testament. The story of Jesus Christ and those that follow Him into a finite hell for an eternal reward.

Lastly, hell itself is our new problem of evil in the New Testament to many Christians it seems to me. We do not understand why our loved ones can die and go there, why the singers or actors or athletes we like end up there, and often the justice of it depends on believing on faith in God's love and goodness and fairness. We do not understand how it is perfectly just that these people and many more spend eternity in torment, but because God is doing so, we can be assured that it is right and good and fair and just. However, the tragedy never seems lost to God (Philippians 3:18, Ezekiel 18).

We fail to see, as that is how we view things being a fallen sinner, that in the fall, all of us became sinners and all of us deserved hell....

 

[Baptist Believer]

I believe the problem of pain is handled terribly in the church from my own view point. Mainly because we do not emphasize the right verses when we console those in pain. The only solace came from reading the internet articles online that challenged me to live like a true saint, and also the consolation of one of the deacons who did point me to the right verses like "count it all joy.".

As someone who has faced a lot of pain (spiritual, emotional and physical), I can truthfully say that people quoting scripture to me was usually not helpful. Sometimes it was worse than helpful. What was truly helpful was when people would walk with me through the darkness until I could see the dawn of a new beginning again. In other words, less talk and more presence.

Next, don't we romanticize children in the church just like the secular and pagan cultures?

Actually, the Christian faith "created" childhood in Western culture.

I just fail to see where we do a better job than the culture around us in teaching our children about how to live a toilsome life, that often gets much worse, while putting God first.

It is tempting to shield children from life's unpleasantness and create a little bubble of safety and ease instead of gradually acclimating them to the realities of the world. I used to do a lot of funerals and people would constantly ask me if they should allow their children to come. My standard answer was a question, "Why shouldn't they come?" If their child was going to be a discipline problem or something like that then they shouldn't come, but children need to be acquainted with the reality of death. They can handle it if their parents guide them. They can also handle all of the other unhappy aspects of life with good parenting.

 

[Steven Yeadon]

Actually, the Christian faith "created" childhood in Western culture.

Ah! Thanks for the article. Very informative. What I should say is that non-Christian culture nowadays over romanticizes children. We are like the Victorians with children from a professor of theology once told me. We see children as utterly innocent on some level, when that is not the case in the bible, and especially not in rearing them.

It is tempting to shield children from life's unpleasantness and create a little bubble of safety and ease instead of gradually acclimating them to the realities of the world. I used to do a lot of funerals and people would constantly ask me if they should allow their children to come. My standard answer was a question, "Why shouldn't they come?" If their child was going to be a discipline problem or something like that then they shouldn't come, but children need to be acquainted with the reality of death. They can handle it if their parents guide them. They can also handle all of the other unhappy aspects of life with good parenting.

I absolutely agree.

As someone who has faced a lot of pain (spiritual, emotional and physical), I can truthfully say that people quoting scripture to me was usually not helpful. Sometimes it was worse than helpful. What was truly helpful was when people would walk with me through the darkness until I could see the dawn of a new beginning again. In other words, less talk and more presence.

I agree to an extent, we all need loving presence just like Job's friends originally gave before accusing poor Job. The problem is I didn't have any breakthrough on my pain until I started to "count it pure joy" when in the middle of my darkness and pain. Nowadays I shock everyone with the joy and hope within me despite my struggles with chronic pain and a fairly hard life by American standards. I also had to learn to love the idea of being disciplined to be like Jesus. Instead of complaining to God, I said "thank you in Jesus' name" for all the trials and pains. I had to learn to be like Job as well, praising and worshiping God despite the pain and bad news, and I had to be like Job in just understanding that heavenly things are beyond me and that what He has given me is sufficient. My whole outlook has changed as a result. Dare I say I don't even feel human but more than a conqueror through Him.

 

[Steven Yeadon]

Big problem is that we have pretty much bought into that God wants to give to us ease/comfort/pleasures, as in health and wealth prosperity , but the truth is that he is much more interested into making us more into into the image of Christ....

Yeah, (Hebrews 12) carries the day it seems. Even (James 1:2-4) and (Romans 8:28-29) are ultimately about growing to be like Jesus. I am reminded of that song with the refrain "refiner's fire, my hearts one desire" and the fact that Christians must get used to being refined and matured into the likeness of Jesus.

Ah, but I now remember that the verse which for all time vanquished the so called "problem of evil" forever in my mind. Philippians 3:8-11: we are to want to know Jesus and be like Him down to His sufferings! I realized that life wasn't about dodging pain, but about embracing hardship if it makes me more like Jesus with these verses. My whole calculus about life on earth was wrong. It isn't about how much pain we suffer and how much pleasure we get in these finite lives. Instead, it is about whether we suffered well while doing the will of our Father in heaven.

Wow, I'm liking this thread. It is really maturing my perspective.

 

[Steven Yeadon]

We fail to see, as that is how we view things being a fallen sinner, that in the fall, all of us became sinners and all of us deserved hell....

Very true. I am still trying to understand the reality that my own sinfulness deserves hell, even if I don't think hell is warranted. I must take this on faith and put my faith into the fact that any amount of sin before a holy, holy, holy God invites destruction and damnation. It reminds me of the Tabernacle, the Ark of the Covenant, and Mount Sinai. While holiness may not make perfect sense, it does have deadly consequences. Ah! I remember now that I have read that interacting with something holy is like interacting with something radioactive.

Jesus was/is God Incarnate, so His very bature as such would be beyond what we can fully grasp, as he is holy in the God sense of that term!

I don't understand what you mean with this sentence.


Also, Baptist Believer and Aaron I will be responding more to your first posts when I have time.

 

[Steven Yeadon]

I think the church handles the "problem of evil" quite well most of the time. Looking at Creation from God's point of view (and he is no respecter of persons), all have sinned and deserve judgment and misery. But His love for us is manifest not in the notion that He must relieve us of suffering, but in the fact that did not spare His own Son any of that judgment and misery.

Rom 8:32: He that spared not his own Son . . .

That is what testified to my heart for years and years as a Christian with little real faith. God did not spare His own innocent Son of the hellish agonies of this world. Why am I any better than God's own Son? In fact I have another witness that condemns the idea that life as a Christian is about health and wealth: The witness of the Christian martyrs and those severely persecuted for their faith. If these family members in Christ were not spared the agonies of this world, then again why am I any better? If one day I suffer torture and murder, I can at least have the amazing comfort that Jesus and His martyrs had trodden this road before me.

I am also very careful about thinking I understand God's perspective. Could you give the verses that God is not a respecter of person's from His own point of view.

The "problem of evil" as you have described it, is really a problem with your notions. You view people as basically good and innocent, and they're not. Not even the children. And that is why you have ( or had ) a tough time as thinking of God as just when He brings calamity on those who are seemingly innocent.

Having wrestled with things a little more, I now understand what you mean. Yes, when I hear of the fire bombing of Japanese cities I was at first shocked beyond belief that we could carry out such heinous war crimes against our enemies. However, more recently I know that those cities and indeed all cities destroyed since the start of creation were destroyed because the Lord willed it for some reason (Amos 3:6). In the case of Japan that was probably because their sin reached such heights that God lost patience and destroyed them.

Again innocent bystanders aren't so innocent because the vast majority live lives in sin and rebellion against the Gospel. Children, while precious and doted on by God, are not free of being cursed at birth for the sins of their forbears (Exodus 34:6-7, Deuteronomy 5:8-10). That said, I still think we must be careful in forgetting that young children seem to hold a special love from God, because they embody the Kingdom in some way that most youth and adults don't (Matthew 19:14).

 

[Steven Yeadon]

In short, the grace of God.

The longer answer is that you understood the message of the scripture and the Spirit walked you through it.

This is absolutely true. Because of this, I believe everyone who goes to church should at least have the understanding of what the bible tells about pain and suffering that I do. I believe this is the biggest problem I see in churches in regards to pain and suffering in our lives: we do not have a proper perspective on pain and suffering as given by the Word of God. Or if we do have the biblical perspective, it never forms into a holy attitude that puts faith into what the bible tells us.

That happens a lot in Christian circles, and it is extremely popular and profitable. I was in Houston on Wednesday evening and got caught in a traffic jam coming out of the "Lakewood" megachurch's (Joel Osteen) evening meeting. I saw all of those people pouring out of that place who have been listening to someone who tells them what they think they want to hear.

I agree absolutely.

I don't know if we "beat" the problem of pain, but I think we can find God in the middle of it, or at least on the other side of it. A lot of people forget that the gospels themselves are a testament to a good Man suffering (Jesus) and His ultimate vindication by God. Those who are His disciples should expect nothing less.

I think we can beat the problem of pain in terms of the attitude we have towards that pain. If we can act like Jesus or Paul throughout a life of pain and misery, then we are beyond the greatest conquerors of history in a real way. Ah! Another important passage to me comes to mind: (Philippians 2:14-18). Like Jesus and Paul we are to just take life as it is and not complain or argue about what it is we have to do. I have a hard time trying to implement these verses in my own life, but I see the positive fruit of obeying these verses often. I also see the negative consequences of going against them as well.

I also know from my own walk that the measure of how much faith we really have is the measure to which we put faith into what God's Word tells us in the middle of terrible pain, dare I say torment. To me in those moments putting conscious faith into God's Word, Our Heavenly Father, His Son, His Spirit, His Kingdom, and my eternal reward banishes away the darkness, and doubt and sets my mind free, even though my body is in terrible pain..

I have already covered with Aaron the section on not expecting a life better than God's own Son or His other children who were severely persecuted, martyred, or who just lived hellish lives on earth.

Contemporary Western society diminishes the reality of evil and death in the public consciousness because it does not fit with our views of human progress and the inherent "goodness" of humankind. One of the great ironies of education since World War II is the use of The Diary of Anne Frank in schools, and they emphasize a certain sentence as summing up the main theme of the book:

“In spite of everything I still believe that people are really good at heart.”
That was emphasized back when the diary was required reading in English class in my high school. The teacher asked me what I thought of that statement. I said, "I think it is naive. Not that long after she wrote it, she was sent to a concentration camp, where she died at the hands of people who were not 'good at heart'." As you can imagine, that didn't go over well with the teacher.

After that little blow up in class where the teacher forcefully suggested that I had reading comprehension problems, I went back and reread that section. Here's the quote in context:

“In spite of everything I still believe that people are really good at heart. I simply can’t build up my hopes on a foundation consisting of confusion, misery, and death. I see the world gradually being turned into a wilderness, I hear the ever approaching thunder, which will destroy us too, I can feel the sufferings of millions and yet, if I look up into the heavens, I think that it will all come right, that this cruelty too will end, and that peace and tranquility will return again.”
Even as a teenager without much knowledge of the Christian faith, I realized she was probably talking about God destroying evil in some intuitive way that was inspired by her Jewish heritage. It is a profound passage, but not the way it is usually taught.

We have a culture that fundamentally doesn't believe that God is at work preparing it for complete redemption. We have little consciousness of God's judgment that will surely come upon those who do evil among us. We tend to think that people "get away" with things if they don't face the full consequences of them before their life ends. But the Christian message says something else.

This was one of the most shocking things I had to just accept when I became a Believer, because I too had read the book, but as an unbeliever, and I had fallen in love with it. That said, the truth that gives a sorrow that transcends words is that Anne Frank was just a naive young woman. She did not respect the scripture (Jeremiah 17:9) when she said that everyone was really good at heart. She was lying to herself with a an emotion that betrays a kind of Universalism about the ultimate fate of humanity at the End of the Age. The part that is beyond all words to describe its sorrow, is that Anne probably died in a concentration camp, starved to death and overworked while starving, all to just wind up in hell one day for hating Jesus.

Another sad part is that I might face death threats if I ever shared that biblical understanding of what happened in a college class.

 

[Aaron]

Could you give the verses that God is not a respecter of person's from His own point of view.

Act 10:34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:

Rom 2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

Eph 6:9 And, ye masters, do the same things unto them, forbearing threatening: knowing that your Master also is in heaven; neither is there respect of persons with him.

1Pe 1:17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:


With respect to children: I'm not saying that where men administer justice on earth that we should not consider the mentality and age of the malefactor, but God looks on the heart. A child would neither murder nor lie if he were neither a murderer nor liar at heart. Were there no children that perished in the flood?

And so all have sinned.

 

[Steven Yeadon]

Act 10:34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:

Rom 2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

Eph 6:9 And, ye masters, do the same things unto them, forbearing threatening: knowing that your Master also is in heaven; neither is there respect of persons with him.

1Pe 1:17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:

Thank you very much. You have shown me that God is completely impartial when it comes to the person (NIV) and will weigh us by our works (of course our living faith saves us though). Therefore, our works must speak for themselves. This reminds me of (Matthew 12:36-37). That is vital knowledge, and it helps me to deromanticize how our Father in heaven looks at me.

With respect to children: I'm not saying that where men administer justice on earth that we should not consider the mentality and age of the malefactor, but God looks on the heart. A child would neither murder nor lie if he were neither a murderer nor liar at heart. Were there no children that perished in the flood?

And so all have sinned.

Such a sad truth, but point taken.

 

[Aaron]

This reminds me of (Matthew 12:36-37). That is vital knowledge, and it helps me to deromanticize how our Father in heaven looks at me.

Well, I think Christ's act on the Cross says a lot about the Father's love.

What if this present were the world's last night?
Mark in my heart, O soul, where thou dost dwell,
The picture of Christ crucified, and tell
Whether that countenance can thee affright,
Tears in his eyes quench the amazing light,
Blood fills his frowns, which from his pierced head fell.
And can that tongue adjudge thee unto hell,
Which prayed forgiveness for his foes' fierce spite?
No, no; but as in my idolatry
I said to all my profane mistresses,
Beauty, of pity, foulness only is
A sign of rigour: so I say to thee,
To wicked spirits are horrid shapes assigned,
This beauteous form assures a piteous mind. (John Donne)​

 

[Steven Yeadon]

Well, I think Christ's act on the Cross says a lot about the Father's love.

Very true, thanks for the advice to balance my viewpoint. Again, I understand that what God tells us in His Word is more complex and multi-faceted than what I originally think.

 

[Yeshua1]

Very true. I am still trying to understand the reality that my own sinfulness deserves hell, even if I don't think hell is warranted. I must take this on faith and put my faith into the fact that any amount of sin before a holy, holy, holy God invites destruction and damnation. It reminds me of the Tabernacle, the Ark of the Covenant, and Mount Sinai. While holiness may not make perfect sense, it does have deadly consequences. Ah! I remember now that I have read that interacting with something holy is like interacting with something radioactive.



I don't understand what you mean with this sentence.


Also, Baptist Believer and Aaron I will be responding more to your first posts when I have time.

As God, Jesus has absolute holiness to Him, none of us here really understand that purity!

 

[Steven Yeadon]

As God, Jesus has absolute holiness to Him, none of us here really understand that purity!

Ah. Yeah it is beyond us for now to really understand how holy Jesus is and how innocent he is and was. Thus, Jesus is much more innocent than a newborn baby.