There are ONLY s kinds of persons, saved or lost, and both live on forever...
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A Case for Giving Satan and his Angels Eternal Torment
- Thread starter Steven Yeadon
- Start date
When you claim there are "serious problems" in someone's view, the first thing you list should be an actual problem, not just an observation about an untranslated grammatical detail. A "problem" should involve an actual Biblical teaching, not your personal opinion caused by reading between the lines of a grammatical irregularity!
And this is indeed only your opinion. The experts disagree with you. BDB says chayyim is a "pl. abs. emph.", or a plural of emphasis (abs. means it's absolute, rather than construct). Scanning through the Bible's use of the word, I find many cases where chayyim is used to refer to a single finite lifespan, as for example Ex 6:16 "the length of Levi's life was 137 years." (BDB lists hundreds.) Another is Lev 18:8, forbidding marrying the sister of your wife during her chayyim (life). Note that this is certainly her earthly life -- levirate marriage requires marrying a sibling of your spouse. Then there's Gen 7:15 - "And they came to Noah to the ark, two of each, from every living thing in which was the breath of life." Not only the same word, but the same EXPRESSION, but about animals.
More examples which actually bear on this argument include: "He asked You for life, and You gave it to him-- length of days forever and ever." (Ps. 21:4 CSB) And yes, this is "chayyim" He's asking God for. Notice that the result of Him asking God is "length of days for ever and ever" -- a strong statement, and standalone proof of conditional immortality, since it shows that "length of days forever" is conditional on "asking God", not simply something everyone gets. Much the same is stated in Romans 2:6-7 - "He will repay each one according to his works : 7 eternal life to those who by patiently doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality..." Again, life and immortality (deathlessness) are both gifts of God, made ultimate to those God rewards in the final judgment but denied to those He punishes.
You are simply wrong, and there are very many direct counterexamples in the Bible. So why should your non-fact be listed as the first element in a case against conditionalism? It's not even true; but almost worse, it's not an argument against conditionalism even if it were true.
There's no Biblical reason to accept that this is what "God created man in His own image" means. The Bible exegetes the image of God in 4 passages: Gen 1:26 (it means we are to rule over all beasts); Gen 9:6 (it means murderers must be executed); Luke 20:24 and parallels (it means we owe ourselves to God); and James 3:9 (it means our treatment of men reflect our true opinion of God). None of this hints at your strange triple-life interpretation, and absolutely none of it reflects badly on my claim, that life is a finite gift of God and not EVER an eternal curse.
You need to connect the dots between this truth, and your claim that this is a "serious problem" to conditionalism -- even if everything you'd stated were true, it wouldn't follow that conditionalism is false. Suppose that we're actually supposed to have three different lives in our three different parts. Then it follows that each life belongs to its own specific part, and when the life of a part ends that part dies. The body's life ends when the body dies. Conditionalism's claim is that in the final judgment, the life of the soul will be taken and the soul itself, along with the body and like the spirit, will finally and utterly die.
This is what it means for a thing to _die_ -- it means its life ends. Every dictionary in the world, in EVERY language, agrees with me.
You're making random guesses, not actual statements about the clear teaching of Ephesians. Paul didn't anywhere in the book say that their spirit was dead; he said that "you were dead." In fact, Paul mentions a spirit in a human only once in the entire book, in the phrase "renew the spirit of your mind."
By putting quotes around "spirit" you give the false impression that Paul actually said "spirit" and you're quoting him. But in reality it's all you, making things up that Paul didn't say. That's your problem, not mine.
Death does not equal annihilation or non-existence. The wicked will be killed by God (Luke 12:5, Isa 66:16) and destroyed by God (Matt 10:28, Mal 4:1-3), not because death and destruction are "equal," but because God will do both things.
This passage does not teach they were both dead and active at the same time and in the same way (specifically in their spirit), which is what you claim. Rather, this passage uses "dead" metaphorically, just as Romans 6:11 does; the unsaved are active toward sin, while at the same time being dead to God; and the saved should be dead to sin and alive (active) to God. Your past attempts to deny this metaphor have never dealt with its opposite in Romans 6:11.
Of course death in the body need not affect the spirit. This is the big difference between the punishment God imposes and the punishment man imposes, after all -- God's punishment DOES affect the spirit. The reason He says to fear (obey) God rather than man is that although men CLAIM to be able to preserve your soul by not killing you, they have no power to actually save your life. So whoever saves their own life will lose it, and whoever loses their life for the sake of the gospel will save it. Conditionalism, pure and simple.
This is only true about *physical death*, and this is WHY it's called physical death; it's because it only affects the body. But this is Jesus' point -- God can kill AND destroy both body and soul! The final judgment will kill all parts of man, and finally, "you will return to dust" will be completely true.
Jesus teaches that the soul of man is DESTROYED in gehenna along with the body. He says nothing about "only rendered useless rather than being annihilated"; on the contrary, of the available Greek words for destruction, He uses one of the strongest; and far from offering the "rather than" qualification you're eisegeting, He's saying it in order to stress God's unique power to do things man CANNOT.
If any translator believed that Jesus really meant "only rendered useless" in this passage, they could easily have translated it that way. They don't, because that's not what it means.
Furthermore, there is no passage in the entire Bible teaching anything like your claim that the wicked will be rendered useless but not destroyed. The Bible teaches from front to back that the wicked will be killed, destroyed, turned to ash, will not attain to the age to come, will not have a part in the New Creation, will cease to be, will "be as though you had not been"... It says that the fires of judgment will do to them what unquenchable fire does to chaff, tares, thorns, dead trees, cut-off vines... when the Bible compares the wicked to present experience, it's always tinder or weeds, never metal or stones in fire.
What conditionalists have ACTUALLY done is noticed that God used human languages like Greek to speak to us, and we read what He actually says instead of making up unbiblical claims like "when He says death, he REALLY means separation" or "when He says destroy, He really means "make useless" and NOT "destroy." We conditionalists don't have to fight against our translations!
There are clear explicit statements in Scripture that man is a threefold human being. 1 Thessalonians 5:23 and Hebrews 4:12 are very clear to any objective observer. Are there those who disagree? Sure, there are those who disagree with anything and everything the scripture clearly teaches. Hebrews 4:12 explicitly claims that the word of God distinguishes between things that differ. Joints differ from bone morrow. Thoughts and intents of the heart differ. Likewise, there is a difference between the spirit and soul. The word of God can make that distinction but it seems you can't - perhaps you should trust God's Word for it? 1 Thessalonians 5:23 lists three distinctions all of which are subject of ultimate full sanctification. There are Hebrew scholars that share my view as well in Gen.2:7.
You are simply wrong! There are many Biblical reasons to go beyond the mere idea of "rule" although that too is a legitimate application. Ephesians 4:24 with Col. 3:10 establishes that in the new birth the moral image of God is restored. There are three tenses and three applications of salvation that apply to man's threefold nature. The past tense "saved" aspect deals explicit with the "spirit" of man (Jn. 3:6). The present tense aspect deals explicitly with the soul and no one denies there is yet a future tense "shall be saved" that deals with the body. Regeneration deals with the "spirit" of man (Jn. 3:6). Progressive sanctification deals with the soul of man. Glorification deals with the body of man. You disagree? You have some scholars you can quote that disagree? I could care less.
This kind of rash irrational reasoning is precisely what I charged your view with. You take the biological paradigm of death and attempt to make it the same with the spirit of man mixing apples with oranges. The evidence in Ephesians 2:1-10 joined with the overall Biblical context as to what part of man's nature is precisely the object of quickening repudiates your whole system. What is quickened is the human spirit and something non-existent cannot be quickened and so your theory of "death" equaling non-existence is proven to be false. Their body was not quickened. Their soul never died. What is born of Spirit "is spirit" and that is what is quickened in Ephesian 2:1,5. Paul again claims it is the "spirit" that has been given life (Eph. 5:25).
This is an absurd argument as no one denies this. The definition does not define what is "life" and and so defining "death" as the end of life is meaningless. However, what was "quickened" in Ephesians 2:1,5 was "dead" but not non-existent but very active in opposition to God (Eph. 2:2-3; 4:18-19). So again your view both "death" and "life" is proven wrong. You are confusing biological life and death with spiritual life and death and they are not equal.
Your statements lack common sense. All three aspects of the human nature is "you." Common sense demands it is not "you" their body. Common sense demands it is not "you' the soul or their intellectional, emotional volitional activity that is "dead." Jesus plainly tells you it is their "spirit" that is the object of quickening (Jn.3:6). Ephesians does in fact tell it is their "spirit" (Eph. 5:25).
Context! Context! The same Greek term translated "destroy" " is used three times in the same chapter (Mt. 10:6, 10, 40) and your definition is impossible in the other two cases and it is wrong in the text. Death of the body is the act of separation of the soul from the body, because as long as the soul is joined with the body there is no death. The soul that continues to exist in Matthew 10:28 is consciously awaiting in hades as Luke 16 clearly states.
I said no such thing! Their body is what is alive while another aspect of their humanity is "dead" and again Jesus plainly tells you what is quickened is the "spirit" (Jn. 3:6). Paul makes it clear it is the "spirit' in Ephesians 5:25 and why would Paul contradict Christ? They were alive and dead at the very same time.
This is an absurd argument which I have already completely repudiated in a previous post. If they were metaphorically "dead' then they were metaphorically made alive also! Moreover, that act of quickening is parenthetically defined as "saved" and so they were metaphorically saved also. That is absurd.
You beg the question by using the term "destroyed" as it there multiple verses that show what is "destroyed" does not cease to exist but only ceases to function according to its design (wine skins, destroying your life so that it can be saved, etc.).
Poppycock, the Bible teaches no such thing as this is pure speculative imagination without a shred of evidence. You confuse Armageddon with Gehenna just as confuse the death of the body with the death of the soul.
Yeshua1, Jesus didn't ever teach anything even like "everyone lives on forever." He taught that anyone who trusts in man rather than in Him will "lose their life", which He expanded on as "lose himself." To lose your life is the opposite of living on forever.
OK, my perspective on this one is easy:
1. Our spirit lives on after we die and returns to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7)
2. The resurrection is for all mankind (1 Corinthians 15:20-22)
3. We will all have imperishable spiritual bodies at the resurrection, except the Antichrist and False Prophet who are thrown alive into the lake of burning sulfur (1 Corinthians 15:35-38, 1 Corinthians 15:42-44, 1 Corinthians 15:50-53, Revelation 19:20)
4. The Judgment happens after we are raised from the dead (John 5:29, Revelation 20:13)
1. Our spirit lives on after we die and returns to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7)
2. The resurrection is for all mankind (1 Corinthians 15:20-22)
3. We will all have imperishable spiritual bodies at the resurrection, except the Antichrist and False Prophet who are thrown alive into the lake of burning sulfur (1 Corinthians 15:35-38, 1 Corinthians 15:42-44, 1 Corinthians 15:50-53, Revelation 19:20)
4. The Judgment happens after we are raised from the dead (John 5:29, Revelation 20:13)
Also, the sin of spiritual tyranny must demand eternal torture. It doesn't matter if Satan intends or does not intend to send all the Lost to hell. By enabling their lost-ness and leading them astray to eternal condemnation, this demands an eternity in conscious agony or at least a time so great it must be calculated in billions of lifetimes in agony. The grandeur of Satan's crimes and of those that follow him are beyond all ability to even comprehend for us as mere humans. I posit that billions of guilty verdicts for involuntary hell means billions of years in conscious agony.
Of course, your position that it is involuntary eternal murder is beyond me. The Old Testament Satan, who was the serpent, is who you are referring to. Even though Satan and his real agenda of tormenting the holy people as the effective emperor of numerous evil angels is not properly understood until the New Testament. He is a dragon commanding angels at his whim, not a mere snake, from a heavenly perspective after all (Revelation 12:7-9).
BTW the architect of the System of the World makes those who orchestrated the Nazi death camps look like pitiful brutes committing a few acts of murder. This in comparison to Satan and his angels who can be more compared to the architects of the ghettos and concentration camps.
Of course, your position that it is involuntary eternal murder is beyond me. The Old Testament Satan, who was the serpent, is who you are referring to. Even though Satan and his real agenda of tormenting the holy people as the effective emperor of numerous evil angels is not properly understood until the New Testament. He is a dragon commanding angels at his whim, not a mere snake, from a heavenly perspective after all (Revelation 12:7-9).
BTW the architect of the System of the World makes those who orchestrated the Nazi death camps look like pitiful brutes committing a few acts of murder. This in comparison to Satan and his angels who can be more compared to the architects of the ghettos and concentration camps.
Of course, that God consigns human beings to the same fate as Satan and his angels is beyond us, but here I must leave my arguments behind and simply say that I put faith into our heavenly Father and His goodness and justness even though I do not understand His ways. The bible tells me that the hell of fire for Satan and his angels is the same one for the Lost who die in their sin (Matthew 25:41). I must mold myself to the truth, to the Words of God, not dodge them. To not wrap myself around what I do not understand is simply sin.
For clarification: I said he's guilty of intentional murder, not involuntary murder. Somehow you heard the opposite of what I meant. I'll reply in more detail tomorrow, but I wanted to make that correction.
It's important because the Bible repeatedly accuses Satan of intentional murder, while you're incorrectly saying he's guilty of desire to torture.
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I repeatedly said "Ephesians 5;25" when I meant Galatians 5:25. Christ explicitly states "what is born of flesh is flesh but what is born of Spirit is spirit" (Jn. 3:6) and he is speaking of the renewal/regeneration of the human spirit. To claim that "dead" is a metaphor in Ephesians 2:1,5 forces one to claim that "quicken" is also a metaphor as what is formerly described as "dead" is what is now described as "quickened." Moreover, what is described as "quickened" is parenthetically described as "saved" (Eph. 2:5,8) and thus you are forced to claim that we are only "saved" metaphorically. Moreover, what is described as "saved" is described as being "created in Christ" which also forces you (if one is consistent with the context) to claim they were only metaphorically "created in Christ." Of course this is pure foolishness. "You" can refer to any aspect of human nature (body, soul or spirit). The term "metaphor" is used carelessly by many to mean a variety of things. Properly a metaphor is used with a state of being verb (is, are, were, etc.) and conveys that one thing is another thing by representation which demands two nouns must first be understood in their literal sense as literal characteristics found in one noun are being transferred or carried over to the other noun.
Romans 6:11 commands the Romans to "reckon" themselves to be "dead" to sin but there is no need to "reckon" if they were actually "dead." Ephesians 2:1 says they "were dead" just as they are quickened and are saved and are "created in Christ" rather than something that needed to be "reckoned" as such. Ephesians 4:18 says they were "alienated from the life of God" not that they needed to "reckon" they were but they actually were and thus "alienated" means SEPARATED from the life of God and that is precisely what sin does it SEPARATES one spiritually from God (Isa. 59:2). That is what occurred "in the day" Adam sinned, he became spiritually "dead" and needed to be "quickened" or "saved" or "created in Christ" or brought back into spiritual UNION with God. The point is that Adam "died" at a specific time that correlated with the time he sinned and it was not his body that died nor his soul. Hence, he too was "dead in trespasses and sins" and this death was the end of spirit life but not the end of spirit existence and function as it is that same spirit that is also "quickened" (Jn. 3:6). So in regard to the immaterial aspect of human nature death and life does not mean something ceases to function or exist but rather it describes a state of existence in relationship to God - separated versus a state of union.
Quickening is being "created IN Christ" or where the spirit is brought back into spiritual union with God whereas being "dead in trespasses and sins" describes the spirit of man functioning in a SEPARATED spiritual existence from God (Eph. 2:2-3; 4:18-19). When it is understood that God "IS" life, light, love and holiness then it is only by being brought into spiritual UNION with God that this life, light, love and holiness is partaken - that is the new birth - being made a partaker of the divine nature. Spiritual death is simply spiritual SEPARATION from God and thus "alienated from the life of God" but also alienated from the light, love and holiness of God. To be "created IN Christ" is to be brought back into spiritual union with the light, love, holiness and life of God. To be SEPARATED spiritually from God is to be in a state of spiritual depravity (without holiness) death (without life) darkness (without light) and enmity (without love). Spiritual DEATH is simply the opposite of Spiritual UNION with God and the opposte of UNION is SEPARATION. The New birth/quickening/regeneration is simply bringing into spiritual UNION with God what formerly was in a state of spiritual SEPARATION from God as a state of existence "in trespasses and sin" when reversed is being created in "true holiness and righteousness."
18 Having the understanding darkened, (separated from the light of God) being alienated from the life of God (separated from the life of God) through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:
19 Who being past feeling (separated from the love of God) have given themselves over to lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness (separated from the holiness of God).
The "conditional mortality" doctrine is an immensely false doctrine as it perverts the very necessary framework for understanding what it means to be "in Christ" as spiritual union versus what the true problem of the fall is all about - spiritual SEPARATION from God.
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Every atheist and ungodly man's fond hope is to simply be burnt to ashes. This is the doctrine of the false gods of Canaan and secularism - simply cessation of being. This is the doctrine of demons and secular humanism.
wTanksley said: ↑
This is what it means for a thing to _die_ -- it means its life ends. Every dictionary in the world, in EVERY language, agrees with me.
This definition does not agree with conditionalist. It does not define what "life" is. We all agree that death is when life ends. But what kind of life are we dealing with? Biological, spiritual, soul life? HOW does life end? Bodily life ends by SEPARATION of the spiritual from the physical. As long as the body and the soul are in UNION life does not end. So even with biological or body life, SEPARATION and UNION are inherent concepts in the meaning of death and life.
The Bible says God "IS" life and God "IS" a spirit. Jesus says all who worship him must worship him "IN spirit." The Bible is clear that sin SEPARATES man from God (Isa. 59:2). The essence of salvation is about being brought into spiritual UNION with God or to be created "IN Christ." God said that Adam would "die" in direct association with the time sin was committed "in the day" he committed that act. Hence, some form of death, Adam was "dead" in some sense PRIOR to his physical death and it was directly due to sin. The Ephesians were "dead" in some sense prior to their physical death and it is directly due to sin. To attempt to make this metaphorical in the sense that no literal understanding of "dead" is meant demands that no literal understanding of "quickened" can be meant either as it is what was formerly "dead" that is "quickened." Furthermore, "quickened" is further defined as "saved" (Eph. 2:5,8) and then further defined in terms of spiritual UNION - "created IN Christ."
The foundations of conditional mortality pervert the basics of the problem of sin and its only solution. It destroys the necessary foundational framework to properly understand the initial consequences of sin and the essential character of salvation. Salvation with regard to its necessary essence is simply being brought into spiritual "UNION" with God as God "IS" life, light, love and holiness. That very idea of salvation demands prior spiritual SEPARATION from God or else there is no need for spiritual UNION with God.
Conditional mortality is the hope and dream of every atheist and ungodly person who has ever faced physical death. It is the doctrine of secular humanism - obliteration of consciousness. Cessation of existence is the ultimate application of this false doctrine.
This is what it means for a thing to _die_ -- it means its life ends. Every dictionary in the world, in EVERY language, agrees with me.
This definition does not agree with conditionalist. It does not define what "life" is. We all agree that death is when life ends. But what kind of life are we dealing with? Biological, spiritual, soul life? HOW does life end? Bodily life ends by SEPARATION of the spiritual from the physical. As long as the body and the soul are in UNION life does not end. So even with biological or body life, SEPARATION and UNION are inherent concepts in the meaning of death and life.
The Bible says God "IS" life and God "IS" a spirit. Jesus says all who worship him must worship him "IN spirit." The Bible is clear that sin SEPARATES man from God (Isa. 59:2). The essence of salvation is about being brought into spiritual UNION with God or to be created "IN Christ." God said that Adam would "die" in direct association with the time sin was committed "in the day" he committed that act. Hence, some form of death, Adam was "dead" in some sense PRIOR to his physical death and it was directly due to sin. The Ephesians were "dead" in some sense prior to their physical death and it is directly due to sin. To attempt to make this metaphorical in the sense that no literal understanding of "dead" is meant demands that no literal understanding of "quickened" can be meant either as it is what was formerly "dead" that is "quickened." Furthermore, "quickened" is further defined as "saved" (Eph. 2:5,8) and then further defined in terms of spiritual UNION - "created IN Christ."
The foundations of conditional mortality pervert the basics of the problem of sin and its only solution. It destroys the necessary foundational framework to properly understand the initial consequences of sin and the essential character of salvation. Salvation with regard to its necessary essence is simply being brought into spiritual "UNION" with God as God "IS" life, light, love and holiness. That very idea of salvation demands prior spiritual SEPARATION from God or else there is no need for spiritual UNION with God.
Conditional mortality is the hope and dream of every atheist and ungodly person who has ever faced physical death. It is the doctrine of secular humanism - obliteration of consciousness. Cessation of existence is the ultimate application of this false doctrine.
So we have from the traditional view : eternal torment for lost humans and fallen angels to their annihilation to universalism: forgiveness and eternal paradise.
The one sure thing:
Psalm 115:3 Our God is in the heavens; he does whatever he pleases.
No matter which of the above we shouldn't try to tell him how wrong He is
HankD
The one sure thing:
Psalm 115:3 Our God is in the heavens; he does whatever he pleases.
No matter which of the above we shouldn't try to tell him how wrong He is
HankD
He stated to fear God, who can destroy one after this life, but again, that is ruin, meaning to live on apart from God, devoid pf "eternal life"
I am sorry I messed up what you had said. I should have been reading your argument more carefully.
I guess for me, I am having trouble with your definition of Satan's purpose, as I contemplate your understanding of Satan's intent. The serpent of Genesis knows that Adam, a son of God (Luke 3:38), will die, at least cease to exist, if he eats of the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil. Then the serpent is a monster com[pared to your average murderer today. That is because he knows his crime is eternal from the start, Adam and his wife are still able to eat of the tree of life, something God stopped him and his wife from doing after their rebellion (Genesis 3:22-23). Satan does not merely murder Adam and his wife as we know it, he robs them of a practically taken for granted eternity as children of God, a status they have that makes the murder all the more heinous.
Also, why can't God in the act of revealing His wrath reveal to Adam, his wife, and all people who die in ignorance of the truth and in the end are not saved, that death to Him is not merely to cease existence for eternity while the children of God go on from glory to glory in paradise, but instead, that death to God is to be tortured by burning sulfur for eternity while maintaining existence? God can define death differently if He wants to as He reveals His wrath over time to those who are condemned.
Mt 18:8 Why if your hand or your foot offend you, cut them off, and cast them from you: it is better for you to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire.
Mt 19:29 And every one that has forsaken houses, or brothers, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name’s sake, shall receive an hundred times, and shall inherit everlasting life.
Mt 25:41 Then shall he say also to them on the left hand, Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
Mt 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
The very same Greek term is used in all of these verses and translated "everlating" and "eternal." It is used to describe both "life" and "fire." The natural meaning would be that both are unceasing. The same natural meaning would apply to "punishment" or unceasing punishment.
Unceasing fire for a finite punishment seems oxymoronic as would be unceasing life for a finite period! By the way how does "fire" burn Satan and demons to ashes since they are "spirits"? Or how does "fire" annihilate spirits? The Rich man was certainly not annihilated or burnt to ashes in Hades and Hades is synonomous with Sheol which is descibed as a place of "everlasting burnings" where "fire is kindled....to the lowest hell"?
Isa 33:14 The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness has surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?
De 32:22 For a fire is kindled in my anger, and shall burn to the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains.
Finally, why is it that all the proof texts for annihilation or "burnt to ashes" describe events in this age at the coming of Christ upon this earth rather than the coming age after the Great White Judgement???
Mt 19:29 And every one that has forsaken houses, or brothers, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name’s sake, shall receive an hundred times, and shall inherit everlasting life.
Mt 25:41 Then shall he say also to them on the left hand, Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
Mt 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
The very same Greek term is used in all of these verses and translated "everlating" and "eternal." It is used to describe both "life" and "fire." The natural meaning would be that both are unceasing. The same natural meaning would apply to "punishment" or unceasing punishment.
Unceasing fire for a finite punishment seems oxymoronic as would be unceasing life for a finite period! By the way how does "fire" burn Satan and demons to ashes since they are "spirits"? Or how does "fire" annihilate spirits? The Rich man was certainly not annihilated or burnt to ashes in Hades and Hades is synonomous with Sheol which is descibed as a place of "everlasting burnings" where "fire is kindled....to the lowest hell"?
Isa 33:14 The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness has surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?
De 32:22 For a fire is kindled in my anger, and shall burn to the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains.
Finally, why is it that all the proof texts for annihilation or "burnt to ashes" describe events in this age at the coming of Christ upon this earth rather than the coming age after the Great White Judgement???
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I challenged you to prove your claim, not just to repeated it over and over. The Bible does NOT say that the wicked will be ruined and not destroyed; on the contrary, it says that they will be destroyed AND that they will be ruined AND that they will be burnt to ashes AND ... .
Nope. Not even close.
No harm, no foul. Not a problem at all. I hope I've conveyed my respect for your argument here adequately (in the tiny time I've taken the last few weeks, sorry).
I'm not telling you my understanding of Satan's purpose. I'm telling you God's word about Satan's purpose. You claim that his purpose is to torment humans forever; Jesus says in John 8:44 his desire is the same as the Pharisees, which is to murder and to lie.
I agree, but that's what a murderer wants too -- consider the Pharisees. Jesus explained that hatred violated the commandment against murder; why? Because hatred is wanting someone out of your life, and murder is simply executing that desire.
Again I have to agree, but this doesn't explain why you think Satan is not an intentional murderer (my claim) but a torturer (your claim).
It sounds like you're making my argument
. God COULD have done all that, but He didn't.Well, God can do anything. So sure, He can "define death differently." But there are some problems with that statement.
The first one is implicit: you admit that God did reveal man's punishment with the words "the wages of sin is death", "you will surely die", and with many other expressions using the word "death" in many other places. You have to explain that, and your explanation is that God could redefine words. But I don't have to explain anything. I'm using the same words as God did. I'm ahead of the game at the start.
The second one is that you say God CAN redefine "death". I'll grant that, but DID God redefine death? There's absolutely nothing in the Bible explicitly teaching that when we read "death" we should instead think "eternal torment". The Jews spent their entire kingdom period having never been told that death meant anything aside from death. I don't see anything in the NT, either, that actually says we're supposed to think that the words "dead" and "death" don't mean what ordinary Greeks and Hebrews and English speakers use it to mean.
The third one is that God actually uses the ordinary lexical/dictionary meaning of death many times in the Bible. If He'd redefined it, you'd think He'd use the properties of the new divine meaning WAY more often. For example, John saw Jesus and "fell at His feet as though dead." As though tortured? As though seperated? No, as though deprived of life, animation, without power to move or sense. There are hundreds more metaphorical passages that use that same ordinary sense of death, showing that the Bible expects people to hear about a dead thing and think NOT of something writhing in torment or separated from something else, but about something without power or without sensation. And this is evidence that God didn't change the meaning of death, but rather meant it to have the meaning all three languages we're using here (Greek, Hebrew, and English) give to the word.
And finally, why would God need to redefine a word? Why not just say what He meant? If you ask the question, "what does God say the fate of the unrepentant wicked will be", you'll come up with the answer "ultimately, they will be judged, made aware of and shamed for their sins against their fellow humans and against their Creator, and killed punitively, forever deprived of their own life as well as any opportunity to participate in God's kingdom and the glory God created us for."
This is all true. Your only questionable assumption here is the unstated assumption that "punishment" means "conscious torment". But the word applies perfectly well to death. So the eternal punishment IS being burned to death in the eternal fire.
Um... It's an eternal punishment, a slaughter that is never undone. Not a finite punishment.
But yes, I claim the fire is always burning since the world was turning -- in fact, I believe the correct reading of "the eternal fire" is the eternal, consuming fire WHO is God, Hebrews 12:29. Whether's that's correct or not, the fact that the fire is eternal and unquenchable makes it MORE capable of burning up and destroying "things which can be shaken" (Heb 12), not less capable.
After all, when John the Baptist mentioned unquenchable fire, he mentioned it being used on _chaff_. Nobody thinks he's predicting that chaff will last forever; on the contrary, he uses the Greek for "burned up", which always means burning until it's gone.
That's a silly question. I don't claim to know. Do you claim to know how fire torments angels, since they are spirits? I expect that whichever God wants to happen will actually happen.
Same answer. But you know, since God ACTUALLY DIRECTLY SAYS He can destroy body and soul in gehenna, it looks like I don't need to answer; God says it, I believe it.
First, you're adding to the Scripture -- that passage absolutely never says the rich man would burn forever. On the contrary, it says his punishment is merited by his life of luxury -- suggesting that it's somehow proportional to his life.
Second, we know the man won't be in there forever; the wicked are not kept in hades but removed by the resurrection to judgment, and thence sent to gehenna. There the Bible says they'll be destroyed body and soul.
Wow, that's absolutely horrible eisegesis. You're referring to Isaiah 33, but you're pretending it's about Hades, and that the sinners are claiming they'll dwell in everlasting burnings. in fact, God just finished telling them what the flames will do: "The peoples will be burned to ashes, like thorns cut down and burned in a fire." In response they protest "who can dwell with everlasting burnings?" But the prophet answers in the next verse: "The one who lives righteously and speaks rightly..." This passage shows that the sinners CANNOT dwell because they'll be burned to ashes, but the righteous WILL because they will be taken up into protection.
This is Deut 32, which is explicitly about a time of earthly judgment. "For fire has been kindled because of My anger and burns to the depths of Sheol; it devours the land and its produce, and scorches the foundations of the mountains." It then goes on to add, "Outside, the sword will take their children, and inside, there will be terror; the young man and the virgin [will be killed], the infant and the gray-haired man. I would have said: I will cut them to pieces and blot out the memory of them from mankind, if I had not feared insult from the enemy..." and then, "The Lord will indeed vindicate His people and have compassion on His servants when He sees that [their] strength is gone and no one is left-slave or free. He will say: "Where are their gods, the 'rock' they found refuge in?"
Your application of this to sheol is absolutely worthless -- EXCEPT as an interpretation of Judgment Day, when God's judgment will reach down to sheol literally, since He will raise up all people to be judged. But in that respect, this shows his time of wrath ends once "no one is left" of those who refused Him and persecuted His servants.
Yes. PRECISELY MY POINT. The Day of Judgment and Wrath is a DAY, and is always described in that way. There is no future for the wicked (Prov 24:20), they are not among those found worthy to enter the age to come (Luke 20:35); so they will not endure the Day of His Coming (Mal 3:2).
And you're entirely wrong about Armageddon; that's a battle done before the resurrection. And promises of being reduced to ashes, like the judgment of the false teachers in 2Peter 2:6, are yet to be fulfilled, and they're long dead. They're being held for that judgment, according to 2:9 -- a judgment which is described in the next chapter and reveals that all sin will be purged in the judgment, leaving only righteousness, 3:13. They can only receive that judgment by resurrection now -- not in Armegeddon.