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Does God love the lost?

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by SheepWhisperer, Jul 20, 2017.

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  1. SheepWhisperer

    SheepWhisperer Active Member

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    Does God love all of the lost?

    Matthew 5:
    44 But I [Jesus] say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
    45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
    46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
    47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
    48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect

    I was going to ask this question and then "spring" this scripture on some, but someone complained about that in someone else's thread so I will just be up front with it.......
    God expects you and I to be representatives of Him, showing that we are "perfect" like Him and are His "children", by "loving our enemies". In other words "be like God is". This question is for the Calvinists: How could God actually "love" the "enemies" of which He has provided no hope of escaping the flames of Hell forever? And I mean, "enemies" who are alive now: not ones who have already died and are awaiting judgement. Please provide chapter and verse, thanks.
     
    #1 SheepWhisperer, Jul 20, 2017
  2. Reformed

    Reformed Well-Known Member
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    In Paul's epistle to the Romans, he wrote the following:

    Romans 9:22-23 22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? 23 And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory,

    God's patience with vessels of wrath is for the benefit of vessels of mercy. God's patience towards the non-elect is also a form of His wrath. He allows those with hardened hearts to continue as recipients of His common grace (air, water, food et. al) as a mark of judgment upon themselves. This is where Matthew 5 comes into play.
     
    #2 Reformed, Jul 20, 2017
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  3. Covenanter

    Covenanter Well-Known Member
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    A valid question that applies to all who believe in hell. Does God's unchanging, eternal love continue to be expressed to the sinners in hell?

    That Scripture does not specifically say "God loves his enemies." It says he acts towards all with benevolence, regardless of whether they are good or evil.

    Note Jeremiah 31:3
     
    #3 Covenanter, Jul 20, 2017
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  4. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Yes, God loves the lost. In fact, God loved the lost by sending His Son that those who believe will not only have life but would have a life of spiritual abundance. :)
     
    #4 JonC, Jul 20, 2017
  5. SheepWhisperer

    SheepWhisperer Active Member

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    Well, you are correct in that it doesn't specifically say that in the verse. But it is what it means. Here's a verse that does specifically mention God loving one of those "enemies":

    Mark10
    21Then Jesus beholding him loved him    , and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me. 22And he was sad at that saying, and went away grieved: for he had great possessions.
     
    #5 SheepWhisperer, Jul 20, 2017
  6. Reformed

    Reformed Well-Known Member
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    Jesus is as human as He is divine. The love Jesus had toward the rich young ruler is not the same love that God has for His elect. Mark was describing a deep affection that Jesus had towards this man. A similar passage is Matthew 23:37 which reads, "Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling." In the Matthew passage it is easy to see the deep emotion that Jesus must have exhibited when he uttered these words about the holy city. In both instances a case could be made that Jesus' love was ineffectual, almost in vain, because it did not result in repentance and faith of the ones being loved.
     
    #6 Reformed, Jul 20, 2017
  7. Reformed

    Reformed Well-Known Member
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    And that is a perfect Synergist explanation.
     
    #7 Reformed, Jul 20, 2017
  8. SheepWhisperer

    SheepWhisperer Active Member

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    Glad you mentioned "oh Jerusalem, Jerusalem how often would I have gathered thee.......and thou would not. The word "would", as you should already know, is a form of the word "will". It was the "will" of the "Immanuel".............the "God with us" that both Jerusalem and the rich young ruler be saved. He was all God my friend. "Human" only in body. "Ineffectual" where is that in the Bible? He said "my word shall not return unto me void" and that IS in the Bible. God's word has the exact and full effect he intended when he said "whosoever WILL"
     
    #8 SheepWhisperer, Jul 20, 2017
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2017
  9. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    No. That is Scripture. The Bible says that while we were still sinners Christ died for us. There are many Calvinists accept these passages as original to Scripture (rather than Synergist additions). In fact, "Reformed" folk who deny they were once lost sinners are really not true to Reformed doctrine (and a "Calvinist" who denies that God sent His Son to save the lost, and that this was Gods love, has departed from Calvinism).
     
    #9 JonC, Jul 20, 2017
  10. Reformed

    Reformed Well-Known Member
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    Reformed folk who deny they were once lost sinners? I do not know anyone who is Reformed who denies they were once a lost sinner. In fact, I do not deny I was once a lost sinner. I have no idea why you even wrote that. Did Christ die for the ungodly? If you mean in the broad sense, then yes. Christ certainly did not die for those who were already saved. But if we are discussing Christ's death in light of the atonement, then no. Christ died for His elect, only His elect, but even the Elect have a conversion experience.
     
    #10 Reformed, Jul 20, 2017
  11. Reformed

    Reformed Well-Known Member
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    First, avoid using the common smokescreen retort of "where is that word in the Bible?". Where is the word "trinity" in the Bible? Theological terms are often used to describe a thing. Nowhere in the Bible do we read that we are commanded to observe "ordinances", but as Baptists we confess that we observe the ordinances of the Lord's Supper and baptism. The term "church discipline" is not in the Bible, but Baptists commonly accept Matthew 18 as establishing church discipline. So, do not go the route of "it is not in the Bible."

    Second, sure Jesus is human and also divine. But His human nature expressed itself as a human. Jesus wept (JN 11:35). We never read where the God the Father or the Holy Spirit wept. Jesus was moved by emotion over the young ruler. Jesus experienced an emotional response towards the holy city. We can argue about the "will" part of it, but I do not think we are going to make much progress due to our mutual presuppositions; you being on the Synergist side and me being on the Monergist side.
     
    #11 Reformed, Jul 20, 2017
  12. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    It says "WHAT IF".

    What IF God wanted to make a huge donut the size of the earth? That doesn't mean God will make a donut the size of the earth.
     
    #12 utilyan, Jul 21, 2017
  13. Agent47

    Agent47 Active Member
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    This is the same quagmire you find in Revelation; here it is to distinguish between words Jesus uses as a human as opposed to Divinity whereas in Revelation it is whether a particular passage/item is symbolic or literal. Will we have a literal 1000 years? Who are the 144,000?

    Why do you rush to conclude he must have expressed these words as human? Bias. A preexisting belief that God can't possibly will to do something but human rebellion stands in His way.

    Why couldn't Jesus Divine have been speaking these words?
     
    #13 Agent47, Jul 21, 2017
  14. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    ​
    I meant in the sense of whether or not God loves the lost. He does.

    And in the more narrow sense, God still loves the lost. And Christ died for the lost (even those who are will not be saved). In light of the atonement (and Calvinism) those who reject the call of God through the gospel offering to them salvation in Christ are rejecting God's love towards them. For the Calvinist, Article 3 under the 4th Head of Doctrine (Canons of Dort) tell them that we were all on an equal footing - lost. Article 8 says that as many as are called by the gospel are earnestly called (which expresses God's love for the lost). Article 9 teaches that some of these who are called do not come, or fall away in the process (the parable of the sower....per Calvinism) through fault of their own. But (Article 10) those who do come do so not of their own will but because God has thus drawn them.

    The fact that Jesus died to save those who would believe does not negate that Jesus died as an offer of salvation through the gospel to all. And the fact that God loves His people in a particular manner does not negate the general love that God shows towards all man (to borrow from Spurgeon's sermon "Chosen Portions").

    So I disagree with the wording "Christ died for the elect, only the elect" as it is unbiblical without qualification. Scripture (and Calvinism) teaches that Christ died for all men, but to save the elect of the Father.
     
    #14 JonC, Jul 21, 2017
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  15. Agent47

    Agent47 Active Member
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    So why do some accept the offer while others reject it?

    I mean of God loves all alike, extends the same offer to all, but some reject it. Why is this?
    Is it possible to resist God's offer(s)?
     
    #15 Agent47, Jul 21, 2017
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2017
  16. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    All reject it. I believe because we are inclined to our own desires.

    The love I am speaking of is what C.H. Spurgeon referred to as a "general call". God loves all men, and Jesus died so that all could be saved. And God calls to all men that if they would only come they would find life. But none come.
     
    #16 JonC, Jul 21, 2017
  17. Agent47

    Agent47 Active Member
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    And then what
     
    #17 Agent47, Jul 21, 2017
  18. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Then what what? If we are talking about people who remain lost (as Reformed points out....those not "among the elect" and do not believe)....they remain in their sins, condemned.

    John 3:18-21 "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. "This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. "For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. "But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God."

    Their state is the "second death", which is when death and Hades is cast into the "Lake of Fire" at Judgment. The basis of this judgment is Christ as the Father judges no one but has entrusted all judgment unto the Son.
     
    #18 JonC, Jul 21, 2017
  19. Agent47

    Agent47 Active Member
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    I'm sorry I misunderstood you. By all do you mean those who eventually perish or all men?
     
    #19 Agent47, Jul 21, 2017
  20. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    By "all" I mean that Jesus is the Savior of all men, especially the believers. All men have an opportunity to be saved (a legitimate offer is made) but no one responds to this offer (this "general call"). This is seen throughout the Old Testament as well - God offers mercy to those who will repent and turn to Him.

    But Jesus died to atone for the sins of those who believe (more than an offer).
     
    #20 JonC, Jul 21, 2017
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