Is Time a dimension or a Measurement?

[The Biblicist]

Often we hear and read of theologians claiming that God exists "outside" of time and yet one can look in vain to find such language ever used in the Bible. They simply do not understand the nature of time. They think that time is a "dimension" or "sphere" rather than a measurement of things that have a beginning and end.

God does not exist outside of time, He just cannot be measured by time. The best way to illustrate time is to take a tape measure. A tape measure has a clip at the end which a carpenter hangs on a beginning point and then stretches the tape out to measure an ending point. That is what time is. Time is a measurement of things that have a beginning and and ending point. God exists "before" time simply because God has no beginning point to measure and God exists "when time shall be no more" because God does not have an ending point.

Time has a "beginning" point - "In the beginning was the word" - Jn.1:1a. In context John is speaking about all things that have come into existence or have been created. The very first thing God created can be measured by time as that thing has a "beginning" point. Everything created by God in Genesis 1 has an ending point as this present creation as it presently exist will cease to exist and will be rejuvenated (regeneration) and that "new heaven and earth" will have no ending point and thus "time will be no more" because time is a measurement of things that have a beginning and ending point.

So God does not exist "outside' of time as though time is a dimension or alternative universe - He exist with time but just cannot be measured by it. Therefore, the Bible use terms like "before the foundation of the world" to describe God and His purposes that existed prior to the "beginning" of what can be measured by time. However, the words "before the foundation of the world" or "from the beginning" make no sense if God exist "outside of time" as though time were a "dimension" or "sphere" of existence. The New Testament writers would use the Greek preposition "apo" with regard to God and time if God existed "outside" of time as a dimension or sphere. Beginning Greek students know that "apo" when put in a graph depicts something "outside" a circle while the Greek preposition "ek" would be graphed as originating within the circle going to the outside. Nowhere in Scripture does any writer use such langauge with regard to God and time that would depict him "outside" of time. He does not exist outside of time, but simply cannot be measured by time as he has no beginning and no ending.


So, in Ephesians 1:4 when Paul says "before the beginning" he simply means before time could measure anything with a beginning point, God chose "us" in Christ in a pre-faith pre-time state. The objective of that pre-time action was to achieve in time (note the word "should" translates a present tense infinitive) that the elect should be set apart to what constitutes salvation that takes place in time. The very first act of sanctification in time is "sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth" (2 Thes. 2:13) as Paul says we were "chosen TO salvation" in time and what first constitutes salvation in time is setting apart by the Spirit and belief of the truth.

So Ephesians 1:4 repudiates both corporate election to a type of salvation as what was actually chosen was "us" and it repudiates foreseen faith as the objective of pre-time choosing was to salvation that is inclusive in time of "belief of the truth." So, "as many as were ordained to eternal life believed" (Acts 13:48).

What are some of your thoughts on this?

 

[rsr]

I would say that God exists outside time. Time is a dimension, just as are the other dimensions (the ones we know and the ones we don't) and they are the expressions of his creative power. For time to exist, it must have a beginning. God has no beginning, so time is an expression of his nature, but he is not bound by it, just as he is not bound by our concepts of width and length and height. Is god inside or bound by the other three dimensions?

 

[Rolfe]

I would say that God exists outside time. Time is a dimension, just as are the other dimensions (the ones we know and the ones we don't) and they are the expressions of his creative power. For time to exist, it must have a beginning. God has no beginning, so time is an expression of his nature, but he is not bound by it, just as he is not bound by our concepts of width and length and height. Is god inside or bound by the other three dimensions?

It is comforting, when in difficult or dire times, to know that our future can be considered by Him to have already passed. He knows what we did and how gracefully we conducted ourselves before we do it.

 

[The Biblicist]

I would say that God exists outside time. Time is a dimension, just as are the other dimensions (the ones we know and the ones we don't) and they are the expressions of his creative power. For time to exist, it must have a beginning. God has no beginning, so time is an expression of his nature, but he is not bound by it, just as he is not bound by our concepts of width and length and height. Is god inside or bound by the other three dimensions?

Ok, but when we speak of a "dimension" we are speaking of something that is simply measurable. Time, space and matter are measurable aspects of the universe in which we live. Space is measurable in terms of length, width and depth. Matter is measurable in terms of energy, motion and phenomena. Time is measurable in terms of past, present and future. So when we say God is "outside" of time we are simply saying God cannot be measured by terms of past,present and future.

But that does not mean God does not exist within this universe, thus within space, time and matter as he sustains its very existence, however, he just cannot be confined by space, time and matter dimensions or measurements.

My issue is that many think of time as some kind of state of existence, like a parallel universe that God exists outside and is hovering around jumping in and out when in reality time is simply a dimension or measurement that cannot measure God but measures the extent or process of things which have a beginning and ending. God merely cannot be measured by these things or contained within these dimensions, but I don't believe this universe is like a bubble in an giant pool of water called eternity that he surrounds and jumps in and out.True, his mind encompasses time and every process within time but it also encompasses eternity which is the only dimension or measurement that is given to measure God.

John announces in Revelation "time will be no more." Since, the original creation everything has been affected by sin and is in a state of deterioration, everything has a beginning and ending point. For example, we call the beginning point of our body its "birthday" which ultimately goes through a process of deterioration until its death. So on grave stones we have a beginning and ending point stated.That is the case of every living thing. That is the case with our universe as the first and second laws of thermoodynamics are at work. However, John announces "time will be no more." Everything God has created since Genesis 1 is called "new" like the "new" birth and our "new" inward man. They never get "old" but remain "new". There is coming a "new" heaven and earth that will never grow old. All these "new" things have a beginning point (at least with us) but there is no first and second laws of thermodynamics at work - they don't age, they don't go through process of deterioration. They remain new and that is something time cannot measure. No one in the new heaven and earth will be asking "how old are you?" simply because there is nothing that ages - time will be no more! So with the new age we move into another dimension that time cannot measure.

So, I don't believe God exists outside of time in the sense that time is some kind of alternative state or universe, but God has no past, present or future dimensions about His person - He never ages, he never grows old, He remains new without beginning or ending points, he is without a deterioration process. Yet he exists "before" and WITH his creation for "in him we live and move" and have our being as does this universe as it is His power that is the glue that holds every atom together. The very fact the Bible uses the term "before" time ("the beginning" or 'foundation of the earth" or "in the beginning was already existing the Word") simply declares God cannot be measured by that dimension/measurement.

I believe that our visible universe has a spiritual realm which we cannot see except when God opens our eyes which is a spirit "dimension" that can be measured in terms of invisible, spiritual versus tangible and physical. That may be called a parallel universe but I don't believe time in and of itself is a parallel universe but is part of this creation which universe is measurable in different terms (space, matter, time).

 

[Rob_BW]

I think it's easy anthropomorphize God when it comes to time, since we (at least in these current bodies) are limited to experiencing time in one direction.

I know I'm limited to only remembering the past, and often I'm not too good at that.

 

[Revmitchell]

Anyone who tries to talk about God and His relationship to time is only speculating at best and even then it is uneducated speculation. It is a ridiculous endeavor.

 

[Yeshua1]

I would say that God exists outside time. Time is a dimension, just as are the other dimensions (the ones we know and the ones we don't) and they are the expressions of his creative power. For time to exist, it must have a beginning. God has no beginning, so time is an expression of his nature, but he is not bound by it, just as he is not bound by our concepts of width and length and height. Is god inside or bound by the other three dimensions?

Time/Energy/matter/space all come into existence by act of God, so He did and does exist outside and apart from those forces!

 

[The Biblicist]

I think it's easy anthropomorphize God when it comes to time, since we (at least in these current bodies) are limited to experiencing time in one direction.

I know I'm limited to only remembering the past, and often I'm not too good at that.

Is time something we experience or is it merely a measurement of what we are experiencing called change?

 

[TCassidy]

God transcends time. That is clear from the bible.

Isaiah 57:15 For thus says the high and lofty One who inhabits eternity, whose name is Holy: “I dwell in the high and holy place, with him also who is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite.

Psalm 90:4, Moses used a simple analogy to describe the timelessness of God: “For a thousand years in Your sight are like a day that has just gone by, or like a watch in the night.”

2 Peter 3:8 But don’t forget this one thing, beloved, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

And on and on and on and on. I suggest reading Knowing God by J.I. Packer.

 

[The Biblicist]

God transcends time. That is clear from the bible.

Isaiah 57:15 For thus says the high and lofty One who inhabits eternity, whose name is Holy: “I dwell in the high and holy place, with him also who is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite.

Psalm 90:4, Moses used a simple analogy to describe the timelessness of God: “For a thousand years in Your sight are like a day that has just gone by, or like a watch in the night.”

2 Peter 3:8 But don’t forget this one thing, beloved, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

And on and on and on and on. I suggest reading Knowing God by J.I. Packer.

I read "Knowing God" by J.I. Packer many years ago, too many years ago that I cannot remember the date. It is true that time is confined to finite creation and God cannot be confined to creation or any of its measurements. So in that sense he transcends time. But I don't see anything in these texts that would contradict anything I have said.

Are you suggesting that time is like a bubble in an infinite ocean called eternity, and God can enter the Bubble or surrrounds the bubble observing it as though it constitutes some kind of existence?

 

[HankD]

We are creatures of the time continuum and in reality can (as someone has already said) only speculate concerning time. It is infinitely beyond our comprehension.

B, you used a material object (a tape measure, an entity traveling in the time stream) in an attempt to explain one small aspect of time. Inadequate IMO to say the least.

What we do know: God did indeed enter that continuum:
Galatians 4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

Jesus came in the flesh as a mortal man - subject to death to do the will of the father:

1 John 4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.

If God wanted to "jump in and out of time" I believe He could seeing it is His creation and He has infinite power.

HankD

 

[The Biblicist]

We are creatures of the time continuum and in reality can (as someone has already said) only speculate concerning time. It is infinitely beyond our comprehension.

B, you used a material object (a tape measure, an entity traveling in the time stream) in an attempt to explain one small aspect of time. Inadequate IMO to say the least.

What we do know: God did indeed enter that continuum:
Galatians 4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

Jesus came in the flesh as a mortal man - subject to death to do the will of the father:

1 John 4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.

If God wanted to "jump in and out of time" I believe He could seeing it is His creation and He has infinite power.

HankD

Our choice of words is crucial here. You use the word "continuum" which is in perfect agreement with my perspective of time. Time by its very nature has a "beginning" point and that cannot be with God, but must begin where the first thing created had its "beginning" point. So, like a measuring tape which is what we use for measuring space, time is a measuring tape for measuring created things. Thus God transcends time as he had no "beginning" and no "end" points.

You speak of "one small aspect of time" and yet time as I know it only has a past, present and future and has a "beginning" point and ending point "time shall be no more."

Perhaps you can enlighten us about some other aspects of time that at least I am unaware of?

 

[The Biblicist]

What we do know: God did indeed enter that continuum:
Galatians 4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

"in the fullness of time", simply means at the right or appointed time but does God enter that "continuum" or does God enter into our experience of which time is simply a measurement since time began until time ends?

 

[HankD]

Our choice of words is crucial here. You use the word "continuum" which is in perfect agreement with my perspective of time. Time by its very nature has a "beginning" point and that cannot be with God, but must begin where the first thing created had its "beginning" point. So, like a measuring tape which is what we use for measuring space, time is a measuring tape for measuring created things. Thus God transcends time as he had no "beginning" and no "end" points.

You speak of "one small aspect of time" and yet time as I know it only has a past, present and future and has a "beginning" point and ending point "time shall be no more."

Well, yes, I agree with all you say here B.

We are ALL limited in our understanding of God and my own explanations of God's relationship to time are inadequate.

I also agree we have all we need in the Word of God concerning time.
Though He did give us a mind with the element of curiosity and the ability to exercise it.

HankD

 

[HankD]

"in the fullness of time", simply means at the right or appointed time but does God enter that "continuum" or does God enter into our experience of which time is simply a measurement since time began until time ends?

It's difficult to say. "time" here has the definite article ("the time") and may be referring to time as a created entity.

But for sure Jesus came in/at the perfect moment in time.

HankD

 

[The Biblicist]

Well, yes, I agree with all you say here B.

We are ALL limited in our understanding of God and my own explanations of God's relationship to time are inadequate.

I also agree we have all we need in the Word of God concerning time.
Though He did give us a mind with the element of curiosity and the ability to exercise it.

HankD

Hank, my point is whether or not we view "time" as type of existence or as merely the measurement of creative existence. In science fiction movies there is the idea of time travel as though time is a sphere of existence that one can move back and forth within. However, if time is merely the continuum of creative existence then time travel is absurd as time does not constitute any type of existence that can be replayed back and forward, but is merely a measurement of the experience and existence of created things.

In John 1:1-3 the words "in the beginning" have to do with creation or things that have no eternal existence but have time existence. Time has a definite beginning point and time has a definite ending point "Time shall be no more."

 

[Rob_BW]

Is time something we experience or is it merely a measurement of what we are experiencing called change?

It's a dimension that we travel through, but our bodies were made to experience this dimension in one direction. Change/entropy appears to play a large part in it, along with the properties of mayter

I guess theoretically one could build a computer out of anti-particles (which behave as regular particles traveling backwards through time), log in every morning and see tomorrow's lottery numbers. But I don't see that happening anytime soon.

Secular physicists talk about the anthropic principle: the universe is the way it is because if it wasn’t it couldn't support living creatues who ponder why the universe is the way it is.

As Christians, I reckon in the end we agree that the universe is the way it is because that's how God wanted it. Living from past to future is how we were planned, and serves God's purposes.

 

[The Biblicist]

It's a dimension that we travel through, but our bodies were made to experience this dimension in one direction. Change/entropy appears to play a large part in it, along with the properties of mayter

I guess theoretically one could build a computer out of anti-particles (which behave as regular particles traveling backwards through time), log in every morning and see tomorrow's lottery numbers. But I don't see that happening anytime soon.

Secular physicists talk about the anthropic principle: the universe is the way it is because if it wasn’t it couldn't support living creatues who ponder why the universe is the way it is.

As Christians, I reckon in the end we agree that the universe is the way it is because that's how God wanted it. Living from past to future is how we were planned, and serves God's purposes.

Rob, you know the word "dimension" simply means "measurement." We use it every day when we ask for the dimensions of a room, pattern or house. So do we travel through a measurement or is time a measurement of our existence from beginning to end?

Theoretical physicist have yet to prove that theory.

 

[Rob_BW]

Rob, you know the word "dimension" simply means "measurement." We use it every day when we ask for the dimensions of a room, pattern or house. So do we travel through a measurement or is time a measurement of our existence from beginning to end?

Theoretical physicist have yet to prove that theory.

It's more than a measurement. It'sa measurement along a defined axis. Height, length, width, and time, the four dimensions we use to define or coordinate location.

 

[Yeshua1]

Rob, you know the word "dimension" simply means "measurement." We use it every day when we ask for the dimensions of a room, pattern or house. So do we travel through a measurement or is time a measurement of our existence from beginning to end?

Theoretical physicist have yet to prove that theory.

God alone is self existing and eternal, no he would exist all by Himself, and all other things were created by him, including time!