They were not members of The Fathers flock. They had rejected Him. Is. 65:2-3
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NOBTS professor detects Calvinistic tilt in study notes of LifeWay’s new Bible (CSB)
- Thread starter Revmitchell
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Reynolds....read verse 26....then 27-30....you cannot say it plainer...especially if you understand Jesus is the good shepherd from ezk34.
They reject him....BECAUSE....they are not sheep..they were not given to the Son.
Jesus died a Covenant death for the elect sheep.
He did not die for goats...
He is the Saviour of all men everywhere in the world....as the elect sheep are found worldwide.There is no other saviour to be offered.
The unbelief of the wicked does not negate the facts that are clear.
Jesus actually saves His sheep. He is not willing that any sheep perish.
Everyone believing will be saved as on the last day every single elect person will be identified.
Anyone who claims God does not elect individuals to be saved is biblically ignorant of the whole revelation of redemption.
Do not listed to them.
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God's Sovereign plans are a mystery to us. It does not bother me that I do not understand the ordinances of God. It does not bother me that my finite mind cannot grasp how God could ordain the path of redemption without being evil by ordaining that evil would enter His creation.
God is Sovereign. God defines what is good and what is evil. We do not judge God and define good and evil. We bow before God. We accept what He declares. We do not question the Sovereign King.
What you are doing is setting yourself on the throne and attempting to cast God down. You are doing exactly what Satan did.
Disagreeing with you is attempting to cast God down. You can not answer very real questions about your belief system but you call others ignorant.
Lol.
You're right, of course, but the actual fact is that no one can help but to think the way he does. A corrupt tree cannot bring forth good fruit, and a good tree can cannot bring forth corrupt fruit.
So whether your thinking is corrupt or whole is completely dependent upon God's choice to either leave you in your corruption, or to make you whole.
You avoided my comment entirely. I answered your faulty thinking regarding the Westminster Confession and I explained to you humanities position before a Sovereign God.
Your comments display the desire to rule your life while God remains but a passive observer. Such a desire is parallel with Satan's desire to rule. It is anathema to the Sovereign King.
I have no desire to rule my life. My desire is to surrender my life. For the record, you answered nothing about Westminster Confession; you merely ranted. You seem to think more insults equates to being more right. If you can answer a question, which I doubt you can. What you will do is rave about my gross ignorance, but if you can then answer the following: How can I have this great understanding of Calvinism if The Lord has not seen fit to move upon me and chicken my mind to this understanding. You scold, belittle, insult, and demean me for not understanding something that your doctrine holds I do not have the capacity to understand.
To answer your question of how I feel about God:
I feel loved. I feel adopted. I feel He cares for me. I do not feel like He is dangling me on a string waiting to drop me first time I mess up.
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Who cares about Calvinism.
I'm talking about God being totally and completely Sovereign.
You are capable of trusting the King because God gives you the capacity. You will bow before Him either as a pardoned sinner or as a condemned rebel. Stop trying to be in control. You never were and you never will be. You are either a slave to sin or a bond slave of Christ. Death or life. Pray that God is merciful and gracious. You dangle over the pit and only the hand of God can save you. Cry out for mercy or die. Perhaps the Sovereign God will be gracious.
You sound absolutely ridiculous. I am a slave to Christ. You just quote old sermons. Since we both believe in perseverence of the Saints, why are we worrying about being dropped into Hell? Possibly, you are one of the extreme variety of Calvinists who believe only strict 5 point Calvinists are saved.
Not the only ones saved, but definitely the only ones who are right.
You avoiding the issue and deflecting rather than facing the Sovereign God. Don't worry about me. Look to the Sovereign God and pray that he is gracious.
I am not deflecting anything. The wrath of The Soverign God was satisfied at Calvary and the application of that shed blood was made to me almost 40 years ago. If you are sitting around in fear of the wrath of God, maybe you should get saved. (I fully expect a tyrade of insults to be forthcoming) Might I experience chastening? Yes. Wrath? No! Could I be effected by wrath poured out on someone else? Yes. Will it be poured out on me? No. Because of my works? No. Because of the finished work of Jesus on The Cross!
Do you worship a Loving Father or a monster who regularly pitches temper tantrums and abuses His children on whims?
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Where do we Calvinists though teach that God will punish us at whim, or to be afraid of getting dropped?
That is the problem, every Calvinist seems to believe something different. Read Mennosotas posts and tell me what he is saying. He is either saying God dangles the saved over Hell by a string, or he is saying I am unsaved. Guess he would have to clear that one up.
You have missed the entire point.
You want God to be Sovereign while you do all the choosing. That is not God being Sovereign. That is you being sovereign and telling God that as long as he lets you choose then you're okay with him being in control. You want a passive God who watches on the sideline and cheers in approval or disapproves of your own rule. But, you want to rule.
That is not God being Sovereign.
God must rule and you must serve as His servant according to His will and His choice.
Anything less is not God being Sovereign. There is not a syncretist rule on the throne.
Read Jonathan Edwards "Sinner in the Hands of an Angry God." Get back to us after you read it.
God’s Rich Blessings
“3 Praise the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavens. 4 For He chose us in Him, before the foundation of the world, to be holy and blameless in His sight.[ In love[ 5 He predestined us to be adopted through Jesus Christ for Himself, according to His favor and will, 6 to the praise of His glorious grace that He favored us with in the Beloved.
7 We have redemption in Him through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace 8 that He lavished on us with all wisdom and understanding. 9 He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure that He planned in Him.”
Here is the analysis of the CSB study note
Ephesians 1:3-9
The study note on Eph 1:4 states: “He chose us in him: The idea of divine election flows out of the important theme of spiritual union, for election is ‘in Christ.’ The doctrine of election is one of the most central and one of the most misunderstood teachings of the Bible. At its most basic level, election refers to God’s plan whereby he accomplishes his will. The meaning of election is best understood as God’s sovereign initiative in bringing persons to faith in Christ, resulting in a special covenant relationship with him. This theme serves as a foundation for the entire opening section of Ephesians, which includes the phrases God ‘chose us’ (v. 4); ‘predestined us’ (v. 5); and ‘predestined according to his plan’ (v. 11). Paul’s focus on the Christ-centered character of election is vitally important. God chose us in Christ before the foundation of the world. This indicates the centrality of the gospel in God’s plan for history.”
Analysis: Christians should not debate whether God chose believers in Christ, but they should explore the possible meanings of such a concept. The emphasis in this explanation on God choosing believers “in him” is appropriate due to the appearance of that phrase in verse 4 as well as in Paul’s other writings. Also, emphasizing God choosing in Christ is appropriate since God the Father referred to Jesus as “my Son, my chosen (eklegomai) one” (Luke 9:35).
The study note explains that “election refers to God’s plan whereby he accomplishes his will.” Such an explanation should satisfy Christians, regardless of whether or not they define election as God’s selection of individuals for salvation (a Calvinistic interpretation).
The next sentence in the study notes was written in way that all Christians, including Calvinists, can interpret to be consistent with their view of God’s work in salvation: “The meaning of election is best understood as God’s sovereign initiative in bringing persons to faith in Christ, resulting in a special covenant relationship with him.” The sentence mentions “God’s sovereign initiative,” which all Christians should affirm because such a view does not require either (although it is consistent with) the compatibilism or the determinism required by Calvinistic theologians. Also, the comment mentions God’s work of “bringing persons to faith in Christ,” which is another carefully worded statement which could be affirmed by most Christians, because those who affirm Calvinistic theology will read the phrase with monergistic regeneration in their mind while other Christians think of an offer by God of salvation which can be freely accepted or rejected.
Finally, the mention that God’s choice of believers before the foundation of the world can be affirmed by Christians who affirm election as God’s choice of a group (corporate election) or distinguish election from salvation (election to service) as well as those who define election as God’s choice of individuals for salvation (Calvinistic interpretation). (Note: For a recent study which raises doubts that Paul conceived of election as God’s eternal choice to save certain individuals, see A. Chadwick Thornhill, The Chosen People: Election, Paul and Second Temple Judaism [Downers Grove, IL: IVP Academic, 2015].)
In conclusion, the study notes on Eph 1:3–9 can be affirmed by those who affirm Calvinistic theology as well as those who reject Calvinistic theology.
As you can see, the study note presents an interpretation that is either Arminian or Calvinistic. The alternate view, God choice of Christ to be His Redeemer, His Lamb of God necessarily included choosing corporately those His Redeemer would redeem. You do not choose a Redeemer without a redemption plan (verse 11.)
A more helpful study note would read like this:
In this passage Paul lists the blessings born anew believers now positionally sanctified in Christ, have received: First, God’s redemption plan formulated before creation included both His Redeemer (Christ) and those who would be redeemed (us). Next, we would be made blameless and holy as a new creation in Christ. Our third listed blessing is that we are predestined for adoption, the redemption of our bodies at Christ’s second coming. Forth, our sins are forgiven through the blood of His Lamb. Finally, with the indwelling of the Helper, He made known to us the mystery of His plan for redemption of those who trust in Christ.
“3 Praise the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavens. 4 For He chose us in Him, before the foundation of the world, to be holy and blameless in His sight.[ In love[ 5 He predestined us to be adopted through Jesus Christ for Himself, according to His favor and will, 6 to the praise of His glorious grace that He favored us with in the Beloved.
7 We have redemption in Him through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace 8 that He lavished on us with all wisdom and understanding. 9 He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure that He planned in Him.”
Here is the analysis of the CSB study note
Ephesians 1:3-9
The study note on Eph 1:4 states: “He chose us in him: The idea of divine election flows out of the important theme of spiritual union, for election is ‘in Christ.’ The doctrine of election is one of the most central and one of the most misunderstood teachings of the Bible. At its most basic level, election refers to God’s plan whereby he accomplishes his will. The meaning of election is best understood as God’s sovereign initiative in bringing persons to faith in Christ, resulting in a special covenant relationship with him. This theme serves as a foundation for the entire opening section of Ephesians, which includes the phrases God ‘chose us’ (v. 4); ‘predestined us’ (v. 5); and ‘predestined according to his plan’ (v. 11). Paul’s focus on the Christ-centered character of election is vitally important. God chose us in Christ before the foundation of the world. This indicates the centrality of the gospel in God’s plan for history.”
Analysis: Christians should not debate whether God chose believers in Christ, but they should explore the possible meanings of such a concept. The emphasis in this explanation on God choosing believers “in him” is appropriate due to the appearance of that phrase in verse 4 as well as in Paul’s other writings. Also, emphasizing God choosing in Christ is appropriate since God the Father referred to Jesus as “my Son, my chosen (eklegomai) one” (Luke 9:35).
The study note explains that “election refers to God’s plan whereby he accomplishes his will.” Such an explanation should satisfy Christians, regardless of whether or not they define election as God’s selection of individuals for salvation (a Calvinistic interpretation).
The next sentence in the study notes was written in way that all Christians, including Calvinists, can interpret to be consistent with their view of God’s work in salvation: “The meaning of election is best understood as God’s sovereign initiative in bringing persons to faith in Christ, resulting in a special covenant relationship with him.” The sentence mentions “God’s sovereign initiative,” which all Christians should affirm because such a view does not require either (although it is consistent with) the compatibilism or the determinism required by Calvinistic theologians. Also, the comment mentions God’s work of “bringing persons to faith in Christ,” which is another carefully worded statement which could be affirmed by most Christians, because those who affirm Calvinistic theology will read the phrase with monergistic regeneration in their mind while other Christians think of an offer by God of salvation which can be freely accepted or rejected.
Finally, the mention that God’s choice of believers before the foundation of the world can be affirmed by Christians who affirm election as God’s choice of a group (corporate election) or distinguish election from salvation (election to service) as well as those who define election as God’s choice of individuals for salvation (Calvinistic interpretation). (Note: For a recent study which raises doubts that Paul conceived of election as God’s eternal choice to save certain individuals, see A. Chadwick Thornhill, The Chosen People: Election, Paul and Second Temple Judaism [Downers Grove, IL: IVP Academic, 2015].)
In conclusion, the study notes on Eph 1:3–9 can be affirmed by those who affirm Calvinistic theology as well as those who reject Calvinistic theology.
As you can see, the study note presents an interpretation that is either Arminian or Calvinistic. The alternate view, God choice of Christ to be His Redeemer, His Lamb of God necessarily included choosing corporately those His Redeemer would redeem. You do not choose a Redeemer without a redemption plan (verse 11.)
A more helpful study note would read like this:
In this passage Paul lists the blessings born anew believers now positionally sanctified in Christ, have received: First, God’s redemption plan formulated before creation included both His Redeemer (Christ) and those who would be redeemed (us). Next, we would be made blameless and holy as a new creation in Christ. Our third listed blessing is that we are predestined for adoption, the redemption of our bodies at Christ’s second coming. Forth, our sins are forgiven through the blood of His Lamb. Finally, with the indwelling of the Helper, He made known to us the mystery of His plan for redemption of those who trust in Christ.
You confuse sovereign with absolute dictator. God is in full control of any and everything He chooses to control. The question is how much control does He choose to exert over mankind. He being absolutely sovereign makes that choice. As many honest Calvinistic scholars point out, if God exerted full control over man, then God and not man would bear responsibility for mans actions.
We are not debating The Sovereignty of God. We are debating how He exercises His sovereignty.
If the sovereign King of Farm Island told his peasants "you are free to grow anything you want in your fields, but I prefer you grow corn," would a peasant who chose to grow beans userp the kings sovereignty? No.
That is the issue we debate here. How much freedom of choice did God choose to give to us?
Already have. Do you want to address what we are discussing or continue pretending intellectual superiority.
I do not confuse Sovereignty.
You demand that God be pulled down off His throne so that you can rule with equal status. Your idea of sovereignty is not taught in the Bible. Sovereignty does not mean dual rulership. It is not a syncretist rule. God is a monarch. He rules. All others bow under His rule.
The fact that you cry out against God as the benevolent dictator is a sure sign that you are fighting God for lordship in your life. There can only be one ruler and it has never, is never and will never be you. God was, is and always will be absolute ruler. Don't fool yourself into thinking anything else.
If you cannot accept God as absolute ruler then your battle is with God and not me.
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