Baptism

[Salty]

The thread on the Lords supper went off into baptism
So lets talk more about Baptism
I had stated in the other thread that COC believes that the thief on the Cross did not need baptism
for salvation as Christ had not yet risen from the dead - we were still under the old Covenant.

Lets say that is correct - but after Christ did rise from the dead three day latter - would that not necciceate the need for baptism.

Now, COC uses Acts 2:38 - Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins
At face value - COC seems to be correct
In addition, they state that there is not one instance in the NT where someone is saved, who is not immediately baptized.

Open for discussion

 

[Yeshua1]

The thread on the Lords supper went off into baptism
So lets talk more about Baptism
I had stated in the other thread that COC believes that the thief on the Cross did not need baptism
for salvation as Christ had not yet risen from the dead - we were still under the old Covenant.

Lets say that is correct - but after Christ did rise from the dead three day latter - would that not necciceate the need for baptism.

Now, COC uses Acts 2:38 - Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins
At face value - COC seems to be correct
In addition, they state that there is not one instance in the NT where someone is saved, who is not immediately baptized.

Open for discussion

Well, paul stated that salvation occurs when we receive Jesus thru faith, and confess that with a now believing heart, and so if baptism was required also, why did he state that he came not to baptise, but to teach and preach christ?

And Baptism is that outward sign of that inward grace that God already had accomplished!

 

[Bro. James]

Gentiles were never under the "Old Covenant". The old testament saints were saved the same way as the new testament saints are saved: through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. The OT saints looked forward, the NT look back to Calvary. Same savior, same kind of faith--no works lest any should boast.

Baptism is a work: it takes a submission of a candidate and the action of a designated person to administer. One could get baptized in every church in the world and still be headed for Hell. Baptism is a picture of death, burial and resurrection. Water does not wash away sin. Only innocent blood washes away sin. Jesus is the only one who could provide innocent blood--the just for the unjust.

Now what?

Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

Bro. James

 

[saved41199]

I believe that submitting to believer's baptism, in front of the church family, is an outward sign of the inward decision to follow Christ. In the Great Commission, Jesus says, in Matthew 28:19 to TEACH and BAPTIZE. Mark 16:16 says "he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved..." Acts 2:38 says "repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins..."

Is baptism the mechanism of forgiveness? I don't believe so...I believe the repentance has to happen BEFORE one submits to baptism...and submitting to baptism (let's face it, getting all wet in front of a few hundred people is a humbling experience) is the outward sign of that repentance.

 

[JonC]

Acts 2:38 does not say that we are to be baptized in order to have our sins remitted but that the reason we are baptized is the remission on sins.

Also, it seems to me that baptism is sometimes used to indicate not only the act of water baptism but also the conversion it represents (I think this is fairly clear with Paul’s use of “baptism” in Romans 6:3 [all who have been baptized into Christ have been baptized into His death] and Galatians 3:27 [all who have been baptized into Christ have clothed themselves with Christ]).

 

[Salty]

I believe that submitting to believer's baptism, in front of the church family,.

My understanding is that in the COC - they do not wait for a church service. Suppose someone is saved at 2 am - they will call the pastor and go to immedately baptize the person - with maybe only 4 or 5 in attendance.

 

[saved41199]

My understanding is that in the COC - they do not wait for a church service. Suppose someone is saved at 2 am - they will call the pastor and go to immedately baptize the person - with maybe only 4 or 5 in attendance.

I wouldn't know about that...grew up Catholic, went Southern Baptist, ended up Fundamental Baptist.

 

[Reformed]

I am not sure why we are discussing the practices of the CoC in regards to baptism. As Baptists, we understand that baptism is a sign of the thing signified. It is not necessary for regeneration.

 

[JonC]

My understanding is that in the COC - they do not wait for a church service. Suppose someone is saved at 2 am - they will call the pastor and go to immedately baptize the person - with maybe only 4 or 5 in attendance.

Around here, yes that is right. The CoC holds that salvation is dependent on baptism (to postpone or withhold baptism is to postpone or withhold salvation).

 

[JonC]

I am not sure why we are discussing the practices of the CoC in regards to baptism. As Baptists, we understand that baptism is a sign of the thing signified. It is not necessary for regeneration.

I'm not sure why we are discussing Baptismal Regeneration, but along the lines of the Lord's Supper the discussion may be interesting and applicable to Baptists. For example, is baptism a public declaration of faith (is it public and is it declaring one's faith before men)? If so, is it that alone? Is it merely a symbol?

I don't believe baptism is a sacrament, but I do believe that it is often downplayed in Baptist churches (perhaps as a reaction to baptismal regeneration). It seems to me that baptism is a necessary component to conversion - NOT necessary to save someone but necessary in the sense that it is the "capstone" to the conversion process that places the person into a church. It is man's response of obedience in salvation.

 

[Salty]

I am not sure why we are discussing the practices of the CoC in regards to baptism. As Baptists, we understand that baptism is a sign of the thing signified. It is not necessary for regeneration.

It is always good to know the reasons of beliefs of others, so when we share with them - we will have general path of direction.
For example - we do not need to prove to a Rom Cathoic that Jesus is the Son of God - they believe that alredy.
However, A JW does not believe that - thus that is one of the things we need to address first.

 

[Reformed]

I'm not sure why we are discussing Baptismal Regeneration, but along the lines of the Lord's Supper the discussion may be interesting and applicable to Baptists. For example, is baptism a public declaration of faith (is it public and is it declaring one's faith before men)? If so, is it that alone? Is it merely a symbol?

I don't believe baptism is a sacrament, but I do believe that it is often downplayed in Baptist churches (perhaps as a reaction to baptismal regeneration). It seems to me that baptism is a necessary component to conversion - NOT necessary to save someone but necessary in the sense that it is the "capstone" to the conversion process that places the person into a church. It is man's response of obedience in salvation.

It depends on how you define the word sacrament. Baptism is an ordinance. It is the first step of obedience following conversion. Refusal to be baptized displays an unrepentant heart and reveals a far deeper spiritual problem. Baptism is also a means of grace in which our faith is strengthened as we think upon our union with Christ, through faith. Personally, my baptism reminds me of Christ's death, burial, and resurrection, and the promise of eternal life.

 

[JonC]

It depends on how you define the word sacrament. Baptism is an ordinance. It is the first step of obedience following conversion. Refusal to be baptized displays an unrepentant heart and reveals a far deeper spiritual problem. Baptism is also a means of grace in which our faith is strengthened as we think upon our union with Christ, through faith. Personally, my baptism reminds me of Christ's death, burial, and resurrection, and the promise of eternal life.

True.

I think that both baptism and the Lord Supper can be a means of grace in that our faith is strengthened as we meditate upon our union with Christ, through faith. But I also believe that this grace is not restricted to baptism and the Lord’s Supper (it is our thinking upon our union rather than the action itself that is a means of grace).

This is the difference in how I would define an ordinance and a sacrament. An ordinance is something through which our faith is strengthened. But a sacrament (how I use the term) is a ceremony through which God’s grace is communicated to man (rather than one that we contemplate upon and our faith is strengthened). Baptismal Regeneration is a sacrament (as is Catholic “baptism”).

I do believe that both baptism and the Lord’s Supper is the act of men responding to God’s grace communicated, and men responding in a covenantal sense. This is why I believe baptism is necessary for conversion (discipleship, not necessary to be saved). And this is why I believe that people died when they took the Lord’s Supper in an unworthy manner (again, not that they lost their salvation, but that they physically died).