And what groups of Baptist churches do not have similar problems today?
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What Do You Feel About John Hagees' Teaching on the Jews...
- Thread starter Dr.Mychalson
- Start date
I don't think that the church works like that (which puts me in a minority, I think, here). We seem to have a debt to both the Anabaptists and the Reformers (our distinctive...what separates us from the rest....has more in common with Anabaptist doctrine but at the same time most Baptist churches could not fit under Anabaptist theology).
Southern Baptists. We all get along.
And where do they trace their faith back to? Have you ever heard of William Kiffin and the "Spiritual Kinship" theory of descent?
I suspect that Hagee believes only Jews are Israelites. But anyone who takes history seriously knows they are basically 2 tribes, Judah and Benjamin (and some Levi). This is why there's a big mess on understanding bible prophecy because promises to Israel are applied to just Jews when they are not the subject of it. There's other genealogical children of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Some of those promises went to those of the birthright. Since the Jew never had the birthright, this is why they never became many nations. but this gets into understanding families, tribes and genealogies. The Jew basically has the scepter, specifically the house of David, which is where Christ came from. But they were never promised to become a multitude except the house of King David. So if we are to look for a covenant with a physical (flesh) children, we have to look beyond the Jew, and I'm not talking Gentiles here or people of faith (i.e. the church). That's a different subject. What I am saying is that I understand what Hagee is saying about a physical people who have a covenant with God, but it goes beyond them and I doubt Hagee understands that. The Jews will be surprised when multitudes are gathered by Christ back to the land of Israel who they thought were Gentiles, but in fact, they were unknown just as the story of Joseph foretold. (Isaiah 49:21) That chapter is addressed to exiled house of Israel and even states the direction they will come from.
Yep.
According to Scripture, God is NOT done with Israel and Judah. They remain His "peculiar" people.
And remember to WHOM God promised the "Holy Land" He promised it to...ISRAEL!
And remember who the Palestinians are - the PHILISTINES, Israel's ancient enemy. You can look it up for yourselves. "Palestinian" is Latin for "Philistine". The land was given to them by Hadrian when he expelled the Jews from it, as the Philistines hadn't rebelled against Rome.
So, apart from the Jews' rejection of Jesus, are they wrong to try to take back the land promised to them by GOD?
God, of course, deals with individual Jews, same as He does everyone else according to each one's PERSONAL relationship to Jesus, but that does NOT nolly His promises to NATIONAL Israel and Judah.
And nothing in other Scriptures cancels this verse - Zech. 2:8 For thus says the Lord of Hosts: He has sent Me after glory to the nations which plunder you, for he who touches you touches the apple of His eye.
Call me a zionist if you wish; I don't care, as to me, the truth of Scripture is much more-important than the self-generated opinions of men. And I certainly disregard mens' private interpretations of Scripture, especially when they try to tamper with it by adding new man-made meanings to certain passages, or disregard their intended meanings placed in them by GOD.
And remember to WHOM God promised the "Holy Land" He promised it to...ISRAEL!
And remember who the Palestinians are - the PHILISTINES, Israel's ancient enemy. You can look it up for yourselves. "Palestinian" is Latin for "Philistine". The land was given to them by Hadrian when he expelled the Jews from it, as the Philistines hadn't rebelled against Rome.
So, apart from the Jews' rejection of Jesus, are they wrong to try to take back the land promised to them by GOD?
God, of course, deals with individual Jews, same as He does everyone else according to each one's PERSONAL relationship to Jesus, but that does NOT nolly His promises to NATIONAL Israel and Judah.
And nothing in other Scriptures cancels this verse - Zech. 2:8 For thus says the Lord of Hosts: He has sent Me after glory to the nations which plunder you, for he who touches you touches the apple of His eye.
Call me a zionist if you wish; I don't care, as to me, the truth of Scripture is much more-important than the self-generated opinions of men. And I certainly disregard mens' private interpretations of Scripture, especially when they try to tamper with it by adding new man-made meanings to certain passages, or disregard their intended meanings placed in them by GOD.
I agree. Scripture plainly says the birthright is Joseph's.
"Jew" is an old nickname for "Judean", just as "Jude" is for "Judah". And don't forget the Levites are included in the Jews, as they migrated to the land of Judah when Jeroboam deposed them as priests.
God dealt more-severely with the Jews because they saw what happened to the ten-tribed nation of Israel for idol-worship, and then exceeded Israel in idol-worship by not only continuing to worship Baal, as Israel did, but brought in the idols of her neighbors, such Nergal of Babylon, Rimmon of the Assyrians, and the "mystery, Babylon" religion from Babylon & several other nearby nations. Thus, God punished the Jews much-more-severely. While exiled Israel lost her national identity over time, the people lived fairly well, while Judah was persecuted without letup most of the time, & that persecution continues today, even though not nearly as severe as in former times.
But GOD said He will bring Israel back, and I fully believe Him!
I agree that the early church, while perhaps not Baptist like us, would have been baptist.
Doesn't that answer your question, then? You trace your heritage back to the Anabaptists and the Anabaptists traces their heritage back to Christ and the Apostles.
We ALL trace our heritage to Christ & his Apostles - to the New Covenant Scriptures.
Denomination are not essentially significant; they are associations of related congregations.
Another Dispy fable. Remember the book series "Left Behind" (more Dispy fairy tales)? Well, It seems the Palestinians were the REAL 'left behind' folks:
38 For as in those days which were before the flood they we e eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark,
39 and they knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall be the coming of the Son of man.
40 Then shall two man be in the field; one is taken, and one is left:
41 two women shall be grinding at the mill; one is taken, and one is left. Mt 24
34 I say unto you, In that night there shall be two men on one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.
35 There shall be two women grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.
36 There shall be two men in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left. Lu 17
The shared genetic heritage of Jews and Palestinians
"...The classic study dates to 2000, from a team lead by Michael Hammer of University of Arizona. They looked at Y-chromosome haplotypes – this is the genetic material passed from father to son down the generations.
What they revealed was that Arabs and Jews are essentially a single population, and that Palestinians are slap bang in the middle of the different Jewish populations ...."
"Another team, lead by Almut Nebel at the Hebrew University, Jerusalem, took a closer look in 2001. They found that Jewish lineages essentially bracket Muslim Kurds, but they were also very closely related to Palestinians. In fact, what their analysis suggested was that Palestinians were identical to Jews, but with a small mix of Arab genes – what you would expect if they were originally from the same stock, but that Palestinians had mixed a little with Arab immigrants...."
Palestinians, Jews share common genetic lineage
"...“The closest genetic neighbors to most Jewish groups were the Palestinians, Israeli Bedouins, and Druze in addition to the Southern Europeans, including Cypriots,” as Ostrer and Skorecki wrote in a review of their findings that they co-authored in the journal Human Genetics in October 2012...."
Do the Palestinians have Jewish Roots?
"...not only do many Jews and Palestinians share remarkably similar DNA, there are also numerous customs and even names that overlap..."
"...Tsvi Misinai, an Israeli businessman who writes and speaks extensively about the connection between the Palestinians and the Jews. He claims that nearly 90 percent of all Palestinians are descended from Jews who remained in Israel after the destruction of Second Temple 2,000 years ago, but were forced to convert to Islam.
According to Misinai, the Hebrew ancestors of the Palestinians were rural mountain dwellers who were allowed to remain in the land in order to supply Rome with grain and olive oil.
While Misinai is an advocate of this theory, he’s not the only scholar or even political figure to claim a Jewish connection for the Palestinians. The first president of Israel, Yitzhak Ben-Zvi as well as former Prime Minister David Ben-Gurion, wrote several books and articles on the subject.
Ben-Tzvi suggested that Jews who remained in the Land of Israel “loved the land so much that they were willing to give up their religion.” The reference is to an edict in the year 1012 by Caliph el-Hakim who ordered non-Muslims to either convert or leave. The decree was revoked just 32 years later, but it was too late for most of the converts. Only 27 percent returned to Judaism openly and even they remained Musta’arabi (culturally and linguistically Arab)....."
Philistines
"...In 2016, a large Philistine cemetery was discovered, containing more than 150 dead buried in oval-shaped graves, indicating an Aegean origin, which is yet to be confirmed by genetic testing.[..."
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I recommend you study a little Latin & a little history. Shimon Bar Kokbba led yet another Jewish revolt against Rome in 132 AD, which the Romans under Hadrian crushed. He then expelled the Jews entirely outta the Roman empire because of their repeated revolts, and he named the land "Palestinia", Latin for "Philistia". or "Falastia". They called the people "Palestinians".
OF COURSE those people became mixed over the years, same as most Jews. The Jews were mixed with Jebusites & other Canaanites, as well as Egyptians, Babylonians, Greex, & Romans, & we aren't sure who else after they were expelled from their land.
But GOD still considered them Jews, as this people bore a long punishment consisting of national homelessness, persecution by many Christians who blamed them for murdering Jesus, as well as by Muslims when they developed, and by pagans in general.
Remember that old Tom Lehrer song, "National Brotherhood Week"?
"Oh, the white folk hate the black folk,
And the black folk hate the white folk,
And the Protestants hate the Catholics,
And the Catholics hate the Protestants,
And EVERYBODY hates the Jews!"
No matter who calls those people what, "Ashkenazi" or other, and no matter their ancient genealogies are lost, their HISTORY, with a reality check, shows them to be the JEWS! It's NOT "coincidence" they founded modern Israel, quickly rose from nothing to become a formidable military power, & have Jerusalem as their capital again.
Yes, they're the true Jews. And God's prophecies about the Jews will be applied to them.
A [Pentecostal friend of mine would say on this" Yes, you Baptists look to John,who batized in water, while we look to the One who baptized with fire and the Holy Ghost"
Yeah, and to a great extent he would be right.
Not if you knew his theology!
I hope not Larry, I like RSR!
Is he anything like Bill Nye the science guy? [emoji56] [emoji41]
He would be pretty right about that point.