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A Concern of Mine

S

Steven Yeadon

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
I believe in Eternal Security. However, I have found a deep problem with Eternal Security of the believer as commonly interpreted.

I believe Eternal Security may be giving many people who aren't Spirit indwelled a ton of false confidence. Like myself and a number of people I know over the years that are all positive we weren't saved and Spirit indwelled until a considerable time after becoming a church-going Christian.

As a result, and also because of the need to understand the bible verses used to attack Eternal Security, I changed my idea of how to live out Eternal Security:
  • "Born again, Spirit-indwelled" believers are eternally secure because the Spirit of God lives inside them, perfecting them. However, the common presentation that our salvation is a guarantee that should give us tons of peace is false. The bible tells us over and over again that our salvation is a gift to be confirmed by living out life in fear and trembling over what it would mean to prove false.

I will list the verses that led me here:

Why are we told to live in fear and trembling as we live out our Christian lives (Philippians 2:12). As someone who has trembled before in fear, that only happens if the thing you could do wrong is life or death. Of course, once our love towards the Lord, given what He has given us, is mature, we are to live like Jesus did in loving submission to our Heavenly Father (1 John 4:18-19).

What of the command to devote our lives to confirming our election in (2 Peter 1:3-11)?

The warnings of (Matthew 7:24-27), (Mark 9:43), (Matthew 10:28), (1 Timothy 5:20), (Luke 13:6-9), (Matthew 10:22), (Luke 21:19), (Galatians 6:7-8), (Hebrews 10:26-39), (Matthew 24:12-13), (Matthew 6:12-15), (James 2:14-26), (1 John 2-:3-6), (1 John 2:29), (1 John 3:3-10), (1 John 3:14-15), and (Matthew 5:30). I plan to do a quick post soon with the rest of these warnings in the New Testament, as I am still reading them.

The "sin lists" of (Galatians 5:19-21), (Colossians 3:5-6), (Romans 1:26-31), (1 Timothy 1:9-10), (Revelation 21:8), (2 Corinthians 12:20-21), and (Ephesians 5:3-7)

The false disciples of (Matthew 7:21-23), (Matthew 7:17-20) and (1 Timothy 5:19-20),

We are commanded so many times in the bible to fear God to list all of them is pointless. I will list Jesus' warning though: (Luke 12:4-5).

Part of what gets me is (Romans 8:9-13), (Galatians 5:22-25): How can a person's life that is not dominated by the victory of the Spirit over sin, a Spirit that dwells within them and gives them his fruit, ever lead to a remotely normal life like those around us? Yet, polls show that about half of evangelical Christians often sin as boldly as atheists, people whom the bible labels vile fools (Psalms 14:1).
 
Reynolds

Reynolds

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Steven Yeadon said:
I believe in Eternal Security. However, I have found a deep problem with Eternal Security of the believer as commonly interpreted.

I believe Eternal Security may be giving many people who aren't Spirit indwelled a ton of false confidence. Like myself and a number of people I know over the years that are all positive we weren't saved and Spirit indwelled until a considerable time after becoming a church-going Christian.

As a result, and also because of the need to understand the bible verses used to attack Eternal Security, I changed my idea of how to live out Eternal Security:
  • "Born again, Spirit-indwelled" believers are eternally secure because the Spirit of God lives inside them, perfecting them. However, the common presentation that our salvation is a guarantee that should give us tons of peace is false. The bible tells us over and over again that our salvation is a gift to be confirmed by living out life in fear and trembling over what it would mean to prove false.

I will list the verses that led me here:

Why are we told to live in fear and trembling as we live out our Christian lives (Philippians 2:12). As someone who has trembled before in fear, that only happens if the thing you could do wrong is life or death. Of course, once our love towards the Lord, given what He has given us, is mature, we are to live like Jesus did in loving submission to our Heavenly Father (1 John 4:18-19).

What of the command to devote our lives to confirming our election in (2 Peter 1:3-11)?

The warnings of (Matthew 7:24-27), (Mark 9:43), (Matthew 10:28), (1 Timothy 5:20), (Luke 13:6-9), (Matthew 10:22), (Luke 21:19), (Galatians 6:7-8), (Hebrews 10:26-39), (Matthew 24:12-13), (Matthew 6:12-15), (James 2:14-26), (1 John 2-:3-6), (1 John 2:29), (1 John 3:3-10), (1 John 3:14-15), and (Matthew 5:30). I plan to do a quick post soon with the rest of these warnings in the New Testament, as I am still reading them.

The "sin lists" of (Galatians 5:19-21), (Colossians 3:5-6), (Romans 1:26-31), (1 Timothy 1:9-10), (Revelation 21:8), (2 Corinthians 12:20-21), and (Ephesians 5:3-7)

The false disciples of (Matthew 7:21-23), (Matthew 7:17-20) and (1 Timothy 5:19-20),

We are commanded so many times in the bible to fear God to list all of them is pointless. I will list Jesus' warning though: (Luke 12:4-5).

Part of what gets me is (Romans 8:9-13), (Galatians 5:22-25): How can a person's life that is not dominated by the victory of the Spirit over sin, a Spirit that dwells within them and gives them his fruit, ever lead to a remotely normal life like those around us? Yet, polls show that about half of evangelical Christians often sin as boldly as atheists, people whom the bible labels vile fools (Psalms 14:1).
Click to expand...
I can't keep up with what you believe. I thought you didn't believe in eternal security.
 
S

Steven Yeadon

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Reynolds said:
I can't keep up with what you believe. I thought you didn't believe in eternal security.
Click to expand...

Then rsr got me with an argument that led me to do bible study in which I found Ephesians 1:13-14. Soon after I just fell into a comfortable interpretation of the Word on this issue given all the verses.

I now believe in eternal security, and I see no good arguments against it anymore for a Calvinist or Arminian.

-EDIT-

I'll go try and get the thread I had in other forum locked as I finally figured out what I believe concerning TULIP after years of studying the Word. It will just confuse people to have these threads all open.
 
Katarina Von Bora

Katarina Von Bora

Active Member
Steven Yeadon said:
I believe in Eternal Security. However, I have found a deep problem with Eternal Security of the believer as commonly interpreted.

I believe Eternal Security may be giving many people who aren't Spirit indwelled a ton of false confidence. Like myself and a number of people I know over the years that are all positive we weren't saved and Spirit indwelled until a considerable time after becoming a church-going Christian.

As a result, and also because of the need to understand the bible verses used to attack Eternal Security, I changed my idea of how to live out Eternal Security:
  • "Born again, Spirit-indwelled" believers are eternally secure because the Spirit of God lives inside them, perfecting them. However, the common presentation that our salvation is a guarantee that should give us tons of peace is false. The bible tells us over and over again that our salvation is a gift to be confirmed by living out life in fear and trembling over what it would mean to prove false.

I will list the verses that led me here:

Why are we told to live in fear and trembling as we live out our Christian lives (Philippians 2:12). As someone who has trembled before in fear, that only happens if the thing you could do wrong is life or death. Of course, once our love towards the Lord, given what He has given us, is mature, we are to live like Jesus did in loving submission to our Heavenly Father (1 John 4:18-19).

What of the command to devote our lives to confirming our election in (2 Peter 1:3-11)?

The warnings of (Matthew 7:24-27), (Mark 9:43), (Matthew 10:28), (1 Timothy 5:20), (Luke 13:6-9), (Matthew 10:22), (Luke 21:19), (Galatians 6:7-8), (Hebrews 10:26-39), (Matthew 24:12-13), (Matthew 6:12-15), (James 2:14-26), (1 John 2-:3-6), (1 John 2:29), (1 John 3:3-10), (1 John 3:14-15), and (Matthew 5:30). I plan to do a quick post soon with the rest of these warnings in the New Testament, as I am still reading them.

The "sin lists" of (Galatians 5:19-21), (Colossians 3:5-6), (Romans 1:26-31), (1 Timothy 1:9-10), (Revelation 21:8), (2 Corinthians 12:20-21), and (Ephesians 5:3-7)

The false disciples of (Matthew 7:21-23), (Matthew 7:17-20) and (1 Timothy 5:19-20),

We are commanded so many times in the bible to fear God to list all of them is pointless. I will list Jesus' warning though: (Luke 12:4-5).

Part of what gets me is (Romans 8:9-13), (Galatians 5:22-25): How can a person's life that is not dominated by the victory of the Spirit over sin, a Spirit that dwells within them and gives them his fruit, ever lead to a remotely normal life like those around us? Yet, polls show that about half of evangelical Christians often sin as boldly as atheists, people whom the bible labels vile fools (Psalms 14:1).
Click to expand...

Steven, It's good to watch you consider the scriptures and the whole council of God.

I'm reformed, as you know. You should also know that I went kicking and screaming to the reformed view. I understand the struggle. Here is a quick video about altar calls and the kind of heresy that can spring from them. People who claim salvation based on one prayer, are not Christians.


This is the basis of OSAS for some. Yet we know that most people saying the sinners prayer, think they have their ticket punched and they can live like hell. That's how doctrines become so perverted. When God draws His own, they are His and they WANT to live for Him. Works can't save. It's all about grace faith and repentance.

I also want to say that I know some people are saved altar calls. I'm one of them. God the Holy Spirit was working within me.



God Bless
 
TCassidy

TCassidy

Late-Administator Emeritus
Administrator
Katarina Von Bora said:
Yet we know that most people saying the sinners prayer, think they have their ticket punched and they can live like hell.
Click to expand...
What statistics do you base that opinion on? How do you know "most people saying the sinners prayer, think they . . . can live like hell?"
 
S

Steven Yeadon

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Katarina your view reminds me of David Platt's, who is a Reformed theologian on TULIP IIRC. Just mentioning something that struck me.
 
S

Steven Yeadon

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
TCassidy said:
What statistics do you base that opinion on? How do you know "most people saying the sinners prayer, think they . . . can live like hell?"
Click to expand...

I will just insert that the video references polls that say only 2-4 percent of those responding to an altar call stay in the faith for at least five years. I'm not butting in though.
 
Katarina Von Bora

Katarina Von Bora

Active Member
TCassidy said:
What statistics do you base that opinion on? How do you know "most people saying the sinners prayer, think they . . . can live like hell?"
Click to expand...

I base them upon the study done by D.A, Carson. You don't have to agree with me or Don Carson. I'm also pushing social security age, and I have personally seen this happen. Your experience may be different.
 
Reformed

Reformed

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
The altar call and making a "decision for Christ" is something I have criticized often over the past few years.

I have written about this before, but it bears repeating in this thread. I attended a well-known bible college in the Adirondack region of New York state. The founder of the bible college was an older contemporary of Billy Graham. Along with Graham, he was one of the last stadium evangelists in the United States. His stadium and auditorium events were most prolific in the late 1940's and 1950's. This gentleman closed every meeting with an invitation where people were asked to either raise their hand, walk to the altar, or both. This style of evangelism was inspired by Charles Finney and Billy Sunday. Responders prayed the sinner's prayer and spoke to counselors who were gathered near the speaker's podium. It was very difficult to follow up with so many people, and many were left to their own devices as to whether they would seek out a bible believing church. Mass evangelism had a way of acquiring "decisions for Christ", but the poor follow-up resulted in many people believing they were saved when all they really did was respond to an emotional appeal. That does not mean people were not genuinely saved (many were), but it also gave just as many people false hope and assurance. When I attended the bible college this gentleman founded in the early 1970's, the same philosophy of evangelism was used, albeit on a smaller scale. The smaller scale made follow-up more effective, but it still resulted in the same false hope and assurance.

False hope and assurance are one of the problems with OSAS. A true profession may never have been made, yet individuals are sent on their way believing they are covered by the Jesus insurance policy. While it is true that a person who genuinely places their faith in Christ is eternally saved, it is a good thing for all professors to test their faith to see if they are truly possessors. Does their profession match up to the Bible's expectation of how a believer should live (c.f. 2 Corinthians 13:5)? I have erroneously been accused of advocating for near perfection in the life of a professed believer. That is not true. Believers will sin and sometimes sin gravely. The difference between a true believer and a false professor is whether the true believer will repent and turn back. Do they exhibit a tender conscience towards sin or do they sin with impunity? David was called a man after God's own heart, not because he walked righteously all the time, but because when confronted with his sin (2 Samuel 12) he repented.
 
TCassidy

TCassidy

Late-Administator Emeritus
Administrator
Katarina Von Bora said:
I don't think for a minute that you don't understand what I am saying.
Click to expand...
Please do not accuse me of lying. You make two statements which seem, to me, to be mutually contradictory. If you choose not to explain them, find, but they remain, in my mind, contradictory.
 
JonC

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
Katarina Von Bora said:
I don't think for a minute that you don't understand what I am saying. But, I admit that I can 'err'.

Perhaps what we have here is a failure to communicate. I'll own it.
Click to expand...
TCassidy said:
How do you reconcile these two statements. They seem contradictory to me.
Click to expand...
@Katarina Von Bora can correct me if I've misunderstood, but I think the difference is not the prayer itself but basing one's salvation on repeating the prayer rather than it being an expression of an inward reality.

I've seen the "sinners prayer" criticized often because it is claimed some use it as an incantation (although I have never seen it used in such a way). I think the issue (with the "prayer") is more one of inference. People may walk away with a false sense of salvation, but I don't know that this is the fault of the preacher as I'm sure some walk away with false senses of salvation when every attempt at evangelism and discipleship is made.
 
Reynolds

Reynolds

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Steven Yeadon said:
I will just insert that the video references polls that say only 2-4 percent of those responding to an altar call stay in the faith for at least five years. I'm not butting in though.
Click to expand...
I wold like to know how they determine that. I am not aware of any mechanism to accurately track that.
 
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