But how do we know what is in the heart of another person? The claim was made that "most people saying the sinners prayer, think they . . . can live like hell." How do we know that? And why do we exempt ourselves from that condemnation?
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A Concern of Mine
- Thread starter Steven Yeadon
- Start date
Rob, great question. First, OSAS is not the same as the Reformed doctrine of Perseverance of the Saints. The latter teaches that a true Christian will exhibit the evidence of faith in their life. They will still struggle with abiding sin, but they will have a disposition to the things of God. Christians are created for good works (Eph. 2:10), so these should also be evident, to greater or lesser degrees. There are some segments of evangelicalism that use OSAS to justify their antinomian theology. The entire chapter of Romans 6 deals with this error.
But to answer your question directly, the modern view of OSAS can be seen in the preaching of Charles Finney, the father of easy believism. Finney's methodology became rampant in Baptist fundamentalism, but not exclusively. To be fair, not all fundamentalists embrace all or any parts of Finneyism, but many still do.
I agree with you that we can't know - and for some reason we see this claim repeated by others when it comes to the "sinners prayer". Not too long ago I also asked for the "data", only to be met with silence (obviously the question was worth the asking
).I agree with you that we can't know - and for some reason we see this claim repeated by others when it comes to the "sinners prayer". Not too long ago I also asked for the "data", only to be met with silence (obviously the question was worth the asking
I know what the sinners prayer is I say it every morning... That is the only way I approach Gods throne of loving grace... Brother Glen
I considered it important to the original post to restate the following, so as to get a proper reaction before we go more off into a criticism and defense of the Billy Graham style altar call:
Why are we told to live in fear and trembling as we live out our Christian lives (Philippians 2:12). As someone who has trembled before in fear, that only happens if the thing you could do wrong is life or death. Of course, once our love towards the Lord, given what He has given us, is mature, we are to live like Jesus did in loving submission to our Heavenly Father (1 John 4:18-19).
What of the command to devote our lives to confirming our election in (2 Peter 1:3-11)?
Because of these verses and the many verses warning disciples and believers away form sin lest they prove false I posit the following is true:
The common presentation that our salvation is a guarantee that should give us tons of peace and certainty is false (I do not find it in the bible). Instead, the bible tells us over and over again that our salvation is a gift to be confirmed (2 Peter 1:3-11). We should strive with "every effort" to be obedient to Jesus as we live our lives in "fear and trembling" of the Lord as He works in us. We must also confess and repent of sin, and He is faithful to forgive and will purify us from all sin (1 John 1:19). Only those living righteous lives should feel safety (the gist of 1 John), but even then they must watch out that they don't fall (1 Corinthians 10:12).
Why are we told to live in fear and trembling as we live out our Christian lives (Philippians 2:12). As someone who has trembled before in fear, that only happens if the thing you could do wrong is life or death. Of course, once our love towards the Lord, given what He has given us, is mature, we are to live like Jesus did in loving submission to our Heavenly Father (1 John 4:18-19).
What of the command to devote our lives to confirming our election in (2 Peter 1:3-11)?
Because of these verses and the many verses warning disciples and believers away form sin lest they prove false I posit the following is true:
The common presentation that our salvation is a guarantee that should give us tons of peace and certainty is false (I do not find it in the bible). Instead, the bible tells us over and over again that our salvation is a gift to be confirmed (2 Peter 1:3-11). We should strive with "every effort" to be obedient to Jesus as we live our lives in "fear and trembling" of the Lord as He works in us. We must also confess and repent of sin, and He is faithful to forgive and will purify us from all sin (1 John 1:19). Only those living righteous lives should feel safety (the gist of 1 John), but even then they must watch out that they don't fall (1 Corinthians 10:12).
Barna, a Christian polling firm, states that the overwhelming majority of Christians in America consider themselves to be casual Christians, and they are primarily Christian for the comfort it gives. Of course this is bonkers to the biblical faith, which states we can expect persecution and hatred for our faith. I say this to add more fuel to the fire of this debate.
Casual Christians and the Future of America - Barna Group
Casual Christians and the Future of America - Barna Group
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This may be true, but usually the false profession evidences apostasy and being tossed to and fro of every wind of doctrine.
Genuine salvation provides evidences in the life of the one professing Christ. And one of the most questionable actions we, as believers, can find, is the questioning of the means of salvation. One who turns from the indisputable Doctrine of Christ which makes it clear Christ alone saves has good reason to question the profession they once made.
God bless.
I don't get hung up by Calvinism versus Armenianism any more. I consider the New Hampshire Confession of 1833 to be the best expression of my own faith.
XI. Of Perseverance of the Saints We believe that such only are real believers as endure unto the end: that their persevering attachment to Christ is the grand mark which distinguishes them from superficial professors; that a special providence watches over their welfare, and that they are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation. But I do believe that a genuine born-again Christian perseveres until the end.
This statement can also be found in the 1925 Baptist Faith and Message.
XI. Perseverance All real believers endure to the end. Their continuance in well-doing is the mark which distinguishes them from mere professors. A special Providence cares for them, and they are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation.
This is what my parents and grandparents believed. It's still accepted by American Baptists. But it does not appear the the 1963 or the 2000 BF&M. The weakened statement which appears instead is: Growth in grace should continue throughout the regenerate persons life.
My view is that the weakening of this statement makes it easy for professing Christians to disregard the fact that a true Christian has been changed forever and will exhibit this change in their life. I call this idea cheap grace which is not supported by the Bible.
Another recent book which has been written on this topic is "The Christian Atheist Participant's Guide: Believing in God but Living as If He Doesn't Exist." by Craig Groeshel.
We are eternally secure that we are made perfect in regards to remission of sins, meaning, we have been forgiven in totality, which is relevant to the penalty of sin:
Hebrews 10:1-4
King James Version (KJV)
1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.
3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.
4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
The reason those sacrifices were unending was because they could not take away sins, or remove the penalty, which is the cause for the need for sacrifice.
Hebrews 10:10-14
King James Version (KJV)
10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
The point the Writer makes is that in regards to remission of sins, we have been made complete (the meaning of the word translated "perfect") in regards to remission of sins forever.
That does not mean we have license to sin or disannul the basic principle of holy living (because He is Holy), but it does speak of the Promise of God to men concerning the remission of sins, which is a key element of the New Covenant:
Hebrews 10:15-18
King James Version (KJV)
15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.
While there is a "perfecting" of the saints that is relevant to Progressive Sanctification, that is not why we can understand salvation in Christ is Eternal. We embrace Eternal Security because it is a dominant Doctrine of Scripture, and can be seen throughout the New Testament.
Those who teach loss of salvation (who I like to call the L.O.S.T., loss of salvation teachers) do so through poor exegesis which fails to properly convey Scriptural truths.
The "guarantee" is in fact the indwelling of God:
2 Corinthians 1:22
King James Version (KJV)
22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.
2 Corinthians 5:5
King James Version (KJV)
5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.
Ephesians 1:13-14
King James Version (KJV)
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
Actually the Bible does not say that "over and over again," and I would question your understanding of the one verse that mentions fear and trembling, seeing you use it, incorrectly, in a context such as this.
What the Bible does say over and over is that Christ came to bestow upon man eternal life, and this through the Offering of Himself. Now, that life could not be called eternal, or more properly, everlasting, if it could end, right? We would have to alter the Gospel to Christ died so that those who believe might have a chance of everlasting life, and perhaps not perish...
God bless.
Katarina Von Bora
Active Member
I don't remember saying you were lying. I didn't think even think it.
Am I unwelcome here?
They can only contradict if you assume that this member is "claiming salvation based on one prayer." It is for you to show that this member is doing that for your charge to be relevant.
God bless.
1. I will concede that I am relying too much on the fear and trembling verse and am thus bending it in odd directions. What would you say the verses in Philippians 2 speak to? You should know by now that I give way to overwhelming evidence, so if you can show it, I may change my mind.
2. As for defending my point of view, I will say that I have yet to find a single person who teaches eternal security as a safe guarantee, who meshes it well with one of my go to sections of the bible on how to live daily: (2 Peter 1:3-11). That more than anything is probably why I hold to the position that I currently do.
3. On another point, I must now change the sentence I previously wrote:
The common presentation that our salvation is a guarantee that should give us tons of peace and certainty is false (I do not find it in the bible).
To the following sentence:
The common presentation that our salvation is a guarantee that should give us tons of peace and certainty no matter how we act is false.
I believe I may get a lot of people agreeing to that statement given the Word. This leads to the real problem perhaps in evangelicalism, that we talk of works proving faith a lot, but when it comes to weighing believers actions, judging them as the bible commands us to do, we turn surprisingly sheepish and silent.
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Katarina Von Bora
Active Member
I would like to question the validity of the thinking that some are duped into security by repeating a prayer.
Frankly, I have never met someone (even church members) who when questioned will not express doubts about their salvation when caught in a living of repeated sin fullness. They know they are not saved. For the redeemed may si, but they do not unrepentantly repeat sinfulness.
It is also true of the worldly wise, the heathen, strangers to the faith and all without Christ. I have yet to meet a single one that will state, "I am without sin," yet I have met many who fought have a false confidence. They would struggle to absolve themselves by selecting some belief from all that this world has to offer, knowing in the depths of their heart they lie even to themselves.
It isn't a mater of OSAS, but the human condition of choosing some other authority disregarding that God prescribed.
However, that is the beauty of the Doctrines of Grace.
The matter of salvation and keeping are under the sole authority of God.
Therefore, in reality, no one can have a false assurance. For either they have the witness and security of the Holy Spirit responding with "Yes,Amen" or they are fakers, and really know their condition.
Frankly, I have never met someone (even church members) who when questioned will not express doubts about their salvation when caught in a living of repeated sin fullness. They know they are not saved. For the redeemed may si, but they do not unrepentantly repeat sinfulness.
It is also true of the worldly wise, the heathen, strangers to the faith and all without Christ. I have yet to meet a single one that will state, "I am without sin," yet I have met many who fought have a false confidence. They would struggle to absolve themselves by selecting some belief from all that this world has to offer, knowing in the depths of their heart they lie even to themselves.
It isn't a mater of OSAS, but the human condition of choosing some other authority disregarding that God prescribed.
However, that is the beauty of the Doctrines of Grace.
The matter of salvation and keeping are under the sole authority of God.
Therefore, in reality, no one can have a false assurance. For either they have the witness and security of the Holy Spirit responding with "Yes,Amen" or they are fakers, and really know their condition.
I am still awaiting Darrell C's comments, but while I wait I throw something out there again:
Given everyone's comments so far, is the real problem among all baptists, that we talk a lot about the fact that works follow faith. However, when it actually comes to weighing believer's actions, judging them, and disassociating with them if they sin without repentance, all of which the bible commands us to do (1 Corinthians 5:9-13), we turn surprisingly sheepish and silent. I mean, do we even know other church member's well enough to do this? Does that indicate a lack of fellowship? Could pastors turn away those that sin without repentance and not be sued? What I mean is, what is going on? Its not like every single churchgoer is in total obedience to the bible.
Given everyone's comments so far, is the real problem among all baptists, that we talk a lot about the fact that works follow faith. However, when it actually comes to weighing believer's actions, judging them, and disassociating with them if they sin without repentance, all of which the bible commands us to do (1 Corinthians 5:9-13), we turn surprisingly sheepish and silent. I mean, do we even know other church member's well enough to do this? Does that indicate a lack of fellowship? Could pastors turn away those that sin without repentance and not be sued? What I mean is, what is going on? Its not like every single churchgoer is in total obedience to the bible.
That is a long Chapter with quite a bit in it, so I will assume you are referring to the exhortation of humility that is pictured in God taking up residence in human flesh for the purpose of the Cross.
If there is something specific that you feel urges a works based orientation I would need you to be a little more specific.
My friend, either you have not read or you have not understood the passages already supplied to you.
God's promise to Israel was Remission of Sins on an eternal basis, and that was to be fulfilled through the New Covenant being established (at a future date). Gentile Inclusion in that Promise was a Mystery according to Paul, but, we can see that God promises salvation to all men, such as all families of the earth being blessed through Abraham, and Christ being made a Covenant of the Gentiles:
Isaiah 42:5-7
King James Version (KJV)
5 Thus saith God the Lord, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein:
6 I the Lord have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;
7 To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house.
I would suggest going back to the passages I gave you and that we discuss them. If you can understand Hebrews Ten in a proper context, you will understand that salvation is indeed the Gift of God, and not something you can work for, nor maintain through works. Hebrews 10:14 is, in my view, the most indisputable statement of Eternal Security in all of Scripture. But, what you will have to do is understand the Verse in the proper context of the Chapter, and the Chapter in a proper context of the Book, and the Book in a proper context of the Bible. I guarantee that if you do that you will be freed up from the bondage of the doubt you now lay in, that God might use you for the good purposes He has in mind for you.
As a point of consideration I will give you one of the favorite passages of the L.O.S.T. (loss of salvation teachers):
Hebrews 10:26
King James Version (KJV)
26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Seems to speak of a Christian losing his salvation, correct?
No, that is not correct, not when we keep it in its proper context. Let's expand it a little:
Hebrews 10:26-29
King James Version (KJV)
26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
The willful sin in view is not a Christian sinning intentionally, because if that were the case, every Christian would lose his/her salvation.
In view is a contrast, not of good believer versus sinful believer, but those who reject the Provision of God, which in the context of this Chapter...is Remission of Sins through the shed Blood of Christ (His Sacrifice).
Note in v.28 that in view are those who rejected the Covenant of Law, called here "Moses' Law." Now note the person of v.29, who has...
1. Rejected the Son of God, the Christ (Trodden underfoot);
2. Has rejected the Sacrifice of Christ (counted His blood (death) an unholy thing);
3. Has rejected the New Covenant (that His Sacrifice sanctified);
4. Has rejected the Comforter's efforts to bring conviction (done depsite unto the Spirit of Grace).
The point being, the Writer is saying, "If those who rejected the Covenant of Law were put to death...how much worse do you think it's going to be for those who reject Christ, His Sacrifice, His Covenant, and His Spirit?"
These are they who will "forsake the assembling of the brethren, Steven. It has nothing to do with Christians losing their salvation.
And I would suggest to you that every passage the L.O.S.T. use to proof-text their damnable and Christ rejecting Doctrine is also incorrectly taught.
I would suggest a study on the word "peace" and see how that correlates to Salvation in Christ.
Can you show me from Scripture that we are not to have complete faith in Christ and His Work?
Romans 5
King James Version (KJV)
1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
3 And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;
4 And patience, experience; and experience, hope:
5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.
I think perhaps something you may not fully understand about salvation is that the Born Again Believer has been restored to an Eternal Union with God. We have been Reconciled to God through the Blood of Christ. Not through the Sacrifice of Christ and the works of Darrel, or Steven, but by the Blood of Christ alone.
But many fail to recognize the magnitude of the Cross, because they merge and blend the Covenants. This is why people are usually confused about whether we "keep the Law" or not.
The bottom line, Steven, is that Security is not something we just decide to believe in, it is, like all spiritual things of God, something conveyed directly to the heart of the believer by God Himself. Even as the Gospel was. And there are only three things through which God is going to convey that truth to your heart through:
1. Study;
2. Study;
3 Study.
This is syllogistic in nature and isn't relevant to the topic.
First, you impose a quality of belief that implies something contrary to a proper view, that is...that one can do whatever they want, or, that no matter what they do their salvation is guaranteed. While it is true salvation cannot be lost, I don't think I have ever spoken to the first person that actually holds to the false belief you present.
Secondly, it is because of sin that most fall into doubt. But, those who think they remain saved through what they do or do not do are possibly in worse shape than the nitwit (if such a person actually exists) who thinks they have a license to sin.
Third, just what exactly is it that the "Bible commands us to do?" The primary command in this Age is to believe on the Name of Christ, and I have to question whether you understand the importance of that. I'm not calling your salvation in question, mind you, just your faith in Christ. If you do not understand that He died for the purpose of bestowing Eternal Life, which is a result of the believer being immersed into God, then you are prone to look to Steven to "fill in that which is missing." Don't take offense, please, not trying to be rude, but, just trying to get you to think of this from a different perspective.
Don't want to seem silent or sheepish, now do I?
Continued...
No church-goer is in total obedience to the Bible, Steven. The problem we now face is that we are still in fallen flesh. If you want to know how much power your flesh has over you, fast for two days.
I would agree that Modern Christendom has a number of problems, most of which stem from a departure from Doctrinal Purity, and, just as the problem was in the First Century, an infantile, ignorant, and lazy approach to Doctrine (Hebrews 5:8-14).
However, before we set out on a crusade to point out the evils of the Church, let's obey that command to look first at our own walks with Christ. First, to make sure our calling and election. We must first have salvation before we can "work it out" with fear and trembling. Secondly, lets try to give to others the same grace we show to ourselves when we fail. Keep in mind that salvation begins with our being virtually "babes" who are in need of the care and attention of "adults" so to speak. That is, those more mature that can supply those things that we, as babes, cannot supply for ourselves. Understanding of Scripture is high on that list. And just as babes that grow, and learn to feed themselves, even so let's learn to feed ourselves on the Word of God. God's Word promises that if we want wisdom, we need but ask God, and He will give it. But He is not just going to download files, He is going to expect us to get in there and spend time with Him in the Word.
The point is this: we are all in a growth process, so we can't expect all believers to act or believe how we do, nor should we forget that as we grow we are going to see a reversal of previous views as we understand better. It's not our job to be hall monitor, lol, so let's try to learn to come into obedience to God's will with that fear spoken of, lest we find out a beam prevents us from removing a mote.
And going out of town today, so while I am gone I would ask you to seriously study the passages presented to you. Eternal Security is written within them, and the only question remaining is why you are not understanding it.
God bless.
Those who fail to see that we are eternally secured by God HAVE to be willing and able to refute Jesus when he stated to us that ALL whom the father gave to Him shall be raised up, and that NONE will get lost again!
He didn't actually say "...none would be lost again."
The primary problem those who lack security have is they do not understand the Cross or New Covenant Relationship with God. Because they do not understand that Christ's death was the only means of Atonement that could be efficacious on an eternal basis, and that that was the intended means of God (before the world began) to reconcile men unto Himself.
As I said, security is a spiritual truth which only God can convey directly to the heart of the believer. And because we are going to sin after salvation, and generally start out very ignorant of the Word, there will be doubt in the heart of the believer that Christ actually accomplished what Scripture states He accomplished.
Christ knows it is finished, you know it is finished, and I know it is finished, but, for those who still need their faith strengthened, it is not finished. And instead of looking to the Author and Finisher (Completer) of our faith, they look to the Author of confusion, which oftentimes is not actually Satan, but themselves.
God bless.