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Partial Preterism and Futurism Continued

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by prophecy70, Sep 22, 2017.

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  1. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    AND there will be the resurrection of the Bride of Christ, and the saints glorified, and when did that happen again?
     
  2. David Kent

    David Kent Well-Known Member
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    We are not all preterist, You seem to think that all who do not follow the Jesuit futurist teaching are preterist, You are wrong.
     
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  3. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    You may not be, but it seems that many have become ones here though!
     
  4. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    Do you guys just make this stuff up? Seriously where do you get this bunk?
     
  5. David Kent

    David Kent Well-Known Member
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    What are you on about?
     
  6. prophecy70

    prophecy70 Active Member

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    Please clarify the "made up" part.
     
  7. prophecy70

    prophecy70 Active Member

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    I am leaning preterist, but I still haven't got into revelations completely, Im looking at each view, so far though David and Covenant, have been the best explainers. Still no explaining at all from the futurist side of things.
     
  8. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    Oh, wow. There is so much wrong with this view that I hardly know where to begin.

    1. Col. was written before Rev., no matter what date you give to Rev. So it is irrelevant to your argument.
    2. What part of "eye" and "see" do you refuse to take literally? Do you know of any place in Scripture where "every eye shall see him" is not literal?
    3. In particular, even preterist authors have to take Rev. 1-3 literally, even if they interpret the rest of Rev. allegorically.
    4. The Gospel through Paul made it literally throughout the kosmos, the Roman Empire. And you are trying to then make a "spiritual" viewing of Jesus in AD 70 equivalent to a literal statement by Paul.
    5. Once again, there is no historical record whatsoever of every eye seeing Jesus come in AD 70--literally, spiritually, or any other way. The church fathers don't mention it, Eusebius in his Church History does not mention it--no one does. That's because it didn't happen.
     
  9. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    No, you're not leaning preterist. If you believe Jesus came in AD 70, you've already fallen over. :p
     
  10. prophecy70

    prophecy70 Active Member

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    Matthew 24 is about the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70.
    Thats just a given. Revelations, is where my questions still remain.

    Is that Literally the whole world? to every single person on this planet at the time?
     
  11. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    Saying Matt. 24 is about the destruction of Jerusalem, and saying Jesus came in AD 70, makes you a preterist. Period. The only thing left, depending on what you do with Rev., is whether or not you are full (and therefore a heretic, in my theology--"one who causes division"), or partial.

    What Jesus is prophesying in the Olivet Discourse is events between his death and the 2nd coming. Just dealt with that from David Hesselgrave's excellent missiology book, Paradigms in Conflict, in my missions class.

    Are you aware of the range of meaning of the Greek word kosmos means, and what the concept of the "whole world" meant in Paul's day? If not, please go study it out and then get back to me.
     
  12. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    Thanks for a good laugh for me and my son here at Starbucks. "Jesuit futurist teaching"? You have to be joking. Dude, I taught seminary eschatology last semester. There ain't no such thing as a Jesuit teaching a Baptist his eschatology. Now, of course, you could accuse John R. Rice and other Baptist historical premil men who got their beliefs straight from the Bible, I suppose, but I wouldn't recommend such nonsense.

    Oh, wait, do you actually believe that the Jesuits taught all of the church fathers for the first centuries to be futurists (because they were)? Please let me know how that happened.

    P. S. I didn't call you preterist.
     
  13. prophecy70

    prophecy70 Active Member

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    Most futurists I know say this hasn't happened yet.

    Matthew 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

    I told you, I was looking for an end time antichrist as well. Until I realized
    During the Middle Ages and before the Protestant Reformation futurist interpretations were virtually non-existent.
    The futurist view was proposed by two Catholic Jesuit writers, Manuel Lacunza and Francisco Ribera. Lacunza wrote under the pen name "Ben-Ezra", and his work was banned by the Catholic Church. It has grown in popularity in the 19th and 20th centuries, so that today it is probably most readily recognized.


    There are an estimated 1.2 billion roman catholics in the world as well, following the pope; because you taught something doesn't mean it is right either.

    Ever debated one on why they pray to the saints?
     
  14. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    Every generation has the same Great Commission and the same duty to fulfill it. The Apostle Paul fulfilled it in his generation, and we must try to do so in ours. However, this prophecy is up in the air. It might be fulfilled before the rapture, or after it by the 144,000.
    That's not what you said. You intimated that the Jesuits were the first futurists, and that we Baptist futurists got our futurism from them. Absolutely ridiculous. Ignore Wikipedia level Internet sources, okay?

    Futurism is the natural result of a literal method of interpretation. That's why every single one of the early church fathers were futurists. No one until Origen with his allegorical interpretation believed anything else other than the premil position.

    The number of Catholics in the world is completely and utterly irrelevant to a Baptist premil believer. Ever study Baptist history? You are a Baptist, right, if you are posting on the Baptist forums?

    Don't have to. I teach it (and it's irrelevant to this discussion). Ever debate a Buddhist about anything?
     
  15. Rebel1

    Rebel1 Active Member

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    For those interested in the origins of both Preterism and Futurism, have you researched that? To begin with something easy, here are two Wikipedia articles. These two eschatological systems were both proposed by Jesuits during the Protestant Reformation to counter the Reformers' Historicism eschatology and their identification of the Antichrist with the pope.

    Futurism (Christianity) - Wikipedia

    Preterism - Wikipedia
     
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  16. Covenanter

    Covenanter Well-Known Member
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    There is a divide in the Olivet discourse between the events that will occur before the passing of this generation and the passing of heaven & earth. Mat. 24:35/36, Mark 13:30/31, Luke 21:32/33.

    The believers were given clear signs as to when they should flee the city before its destruction. The passing of heaven & earth will happen unexpectedly. No city to flee just "watch therefore, and pray always."

    Luke 21:32 Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all things take place.
    33 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away.
    34 “But take heed to yourselves, lest your hearts be weighed down with carousing, drunkenness, and cares of this life, and that Day come on you unexpectedly.35 For it will come as a snare on all those who dwell on the face of the whole earth.36 Watch therefore, and pray always that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man.”

    Have you a helpful link - that YOU trust - on the use of the words variously translated 'earth' 'land' 'world' etc?
     
  17. prophecy70

    prophecy70 Active Member

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    Please prove the origins of 7 year tribulation and future end time antichrist sitting in a rebuilt 3rd temple. Please Provide scripture linking the beast to the antichrist and to the man of sin. Find some literature of this that predates the Jesuit or modern day Darby about the rapture.

    Literal method? I really enjoy the daniel 9 talking about a future antichrist with a 2000 year gap in a 490 year prophecy. Thats pretty literal.

    Ecclesiastes 1:4
    Generations come and generations go,
    but the earth remains forever.

    Is that not literal?


    Im seriously JUST ASKING. So please, instead of taking an ego trip about teaching it. I really am UNSURE about a lot of things. But so far in these past year of switching sides. Futurism makes no real sense to me unless I went into all verses thinking whats going to happen. Matthew 24 read LITERALLY is about the destruction of Jerusalem. The apostles didn't know jesus was leaving and coming back, they didn't know the world would end, they were jews, waiting for there king. Thats why most jews reject him, they believed in a earthly kingdom. I realize there is A lot of smart people teaching futurism, but seriously John Hagees and his blood moods. Jack Van impe... and all the Failed predictions about the rapture after israel became a nation in 1948, because the fig tree grew leaves..... come on now. I also listened to debates from Thomas Ice and Kenneth Gentry.

    David and Covenanter have been 100% helpful in this, comparing scripture with scripture, and not taking an idea and THEN applying it.
     
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  18. prophecy70

    prophecy70 Active Member

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    But "Literal Futurist" is an oxymoron, since futurism requires 100% spiritualization of the time texts.

    1. "The Kingdom of Heaven is at hand." (Matt. 3:2)

    2. "Who warned you to flee from the wrath about to come?" (Matt. 3:7)

    3. "The axe is already laid at the root of the trees." (Matt. 3:10)

    4. "His winnowing fork is in His hand." (Matt. 3:12)

    5. "The kingdom of heaven is at hand." (Matt. 4:17)

    6. "The kingdom of heaven is at hand." (Matt. 10:7)

    7. "You shall not finish going through the cities of Israel, until the Son of Man comes." (Matt. 10:23)

    8. "....the age about to come." (Matt. 12:32)

    9. "The Son of Man is about to come in the glory of His Father with His angels; and will then recompense every man according to his deeds." (Matt. 16:27)

    10. "There are some of those who are standing here who shall not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom." (Matt. 16:28; cf. Mk. 9:1; Lk. 9:27)

    11. "'When the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those vine-growers?' '....He will bring those wretches to a wretched end, and will rent out the vineyard to other vine-growers, who will pay him the proceeds at the proper seasons.' '....Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you, and be given to a nation producing the fruit of it.' ....When the chief priests and the Pharisees heard His parables, they understood that He was speaking about them." (Matt. 21:40-41,43,45)

    12. "This generation will not pass away until all these things take place." (Matt. 24:34)

    13. "From now on, you [Caiaphas, the chief priests, the scribes, the elders, the whole Sanhedrin] shall be seeing the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven." (Matt. 26:64; Mk. 14:62; Lk. 22:69)

    14. "The kingdom of God is at hand." (Mk. 1:15)

    15. "What will the owner of the vineyard do? He will come and destroy the vine-growers, and will give the vineyard to others. ....They [the chief priests, scribes and elders] understood that He spoke the parable against them." (Mk. 12:9,12)

    16. "This generation will not pass away until all these things take place.” (Mk. 13:30)

    17. “Who warned you to flee from the wrath about to come?” (Lk. 3:7)

    18. “The axe is already laid at the root of the trees. " (Lk. 3:9)

    19. "His winnowing fork is in His hand…." (Lk. 3:17)

    20. “The kingdom of God has come near to you.” (Lk. 10:9)

    21. “The kingdom of God has come near.” (Lk. 10:11)

    22. “What, therefore, will the owner of the vineyard do to them? He will come and destroy these vine-growers and will give the vineyard to others." …The scribes and the chief priests …understood that He spoke this parable against them.” (Lk. 20:15-16,19)

    23. “These are days of vengeance, in order that all things which are written may be fulfilled.” (Lk. 21:22)

    24. "This generation will not pass away until all things take place.” (Lk. 21:32)

    25. "Daughters of Jerusalem, stop weeping for Me, but weep for yourselves and for your children. For behold, the days are coming when they will say, 'Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bore, and the breasts that never nursed.' Then they will begin to say to the mountains, 'Fall on us,' and to the hills, 'Cover us.'” (Lk. 23:28-30; Compare Rev. 6:14-17)

    26. "We were hoping that He was the One who is about to redeem Israel.” (Lk. 24:21)

    27. "I will come to you. …In that Day you shall know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you.' …'Lord, what then has happened that You are about to disclose Yourself to us, and not to the world?'" (Jn. 14:18,20,22)

    28. "If I want him to remain until I come, what is that to you?" (Jn. 21:22)

    29. “This is what was spoken of through the prophet Joel: 'And it shall be in the last days…'” (Acts 2:16-17)

    30. “He has fixed a day in which He is about to judge the world in righteousness…” (Acts 17:31)

    31. “There is about to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.” (Acts 24:15)

    32. “As he was discussing righteousness, self-control and the judgment about to come…" (Acts 24:25)

    33. “Not for [Abraham's] sake only was it written, that [faith] was reckoned to him [as righteousness], but for our sake also, to whom it is about to be reckoned.” (Rom. 4:23-24)

    34. “If you are living according to the flesh, you are about to die.” (Rom. 8:13)

    35. “I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is about to be revealed to us.” (Rom. 8:18)

    36. "It is already the hour for you to awaken from sleep; for now salvation is nearer to us than when we believed. The night is almost gone, and the day is at hand." (Rom. 13:11-12)

    37. “The God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet.” (Rom. 16:20)

    38. “The time has been shortened.” (I Cor. 7:29)

    39. “The form of this world is passing away.” (I Cor. 7:31)

    40. “Now these things …were written for our instruction, upon whom the ends of the ages have come.” (I Cor. 10:11)

    41. “We shall not all fall sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed.” (I Cor. 15:51-52)

    42. "Maranatha!" [The Lord comes!] (I Cor. 16:22)

    43. "...not only in this age, but also in the one about to come.” (Eph. 1:21)

    44. “The Lord is near.” (Phil. 4:5)

    45. "The gospel …was proclaimed in all creation under heaven." (Col. 1:23; Compare Matt. 24:14; Rom. 10:18; 16:26; Col. 1:5-6; II Tim. 4:17; Rev. 14:6-7; cf. I Clement 5,7)

    46. “…things which are a shadow of what is about to come.” (Col. 2:16-17)

    47. “…we who are alive, and remain until the coming of the Lord… …We who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds… …You, brethren, are not in darkness, that the Day should overtake you like a thief.” (I Thess. 4:15,17; 5:4)

    48. “May your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.” (I Thess. 5:23)

    49. “It is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire.” (II Thess. 1:6-7)

    50. “Godliness …holds promise for the present life and that which is about to come.” (I Tim. 4:8)
     
  19. prophecy70

    prophecy70 Active Member

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    51. “I charge you …that you keep the commandment without stain or reproach until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ.” (I Tim. 6:14)

    52. “…storing up for themselves the treasure of a good foundation for that which is about to come, so that they may take hold of that which is life indeed.” (I Tim. 6:19)

    53. “In the last days difficult times will come. For men will be lovers of self… …Avoid these men. For of these are those who enter into households and captivate weak women… …These also oppose the truth… …But they will not make further progress; for their folly will be obvious to all…” (II Tim. 3:1-2,5-6,8-9)

    54. “I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is about to judge the living and the dead…” (II Tim. 4:1)

    55. “God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, in these last days has spoken to us in His Son.” (Heb. 1:1-2)

    56. “Are they not all ministering spirits, sent out to render service for the sake of those who are about to inherit salvation?” (Heb. 1:14)

    57. “He did not subject to angels the world about to come.” (Heb. 2:5)

    58. “…and have tasted …the powers of the age about to come.” (Heb. 6:5)

    59. "For ground that drinks the rain which often falls upon it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God; but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and near a curse, and it's end is for burning.” (Heb. 6:7-8)

    60. “When He said, 'A new covenant,' He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear.” (Heb. 8:13)

    61. “The Holy Spirit is signifying this, that the way of the [heavenly] Holy Places has not yet been revealed, while the outer tabernacle is still standing, which is a symbol for the present time. Accordingly both gifts and sacrifices are offered which cannot make the worshiper perfect in conscience, since they relate only to food and drink and various washings, regulations for the body imposed until a time of reformation.” (Heb. 9:8-10; Compare Gal. 4:19; Eph. 2:21-22; 3:17; 4:13)

    62. “But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things about to come…” (Heb. 9:11)

    63. “Now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin.” (Heb. 9:26)

    64. “For the Law, since it has only a shadow of the good things about to come…” (Heb. 10:1)

    65. “…as you see the Day drawing near.” (Heb. 10:25)

    66. “…the fury of a fire which is about to consume the adversaries.” (Heb. 10:27)

    67. “For yet in a very little while, He who is coming will come, and will not delay.” (Heb. 10:37)

    68. “For here we do not have a lasting city, but we are seeking the one that is about to come.” (Heb. 13:14)

    69. "Speak and so act, as those who are about to be judged by the law of liberty." (Jms. 2:12)

    70. “Come now, you rich, weep and howl for your miseries which are coming upon you. …It is in the last days that you have stored up your treasure!” (Jms. 5:1,3)

    71. “Be patient, therefore, brethren, until the coming of the Lord.” (Jms. 5:7)

    72. “You too be patient; strengthen your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is at hand.” (Jms. 5:8)

    73. “…salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.” (I Peter 1:5)

    74. “He …has appeared in these last times for the sake of you.” (I Peter 1:20)

    75. “They shall give account to Him who is ready to judge the living and the dead.” (I Peter 4:5)

    76. “The end of all things is at hand; therefore, be of sound judgment and sober spirit for the purpose of prayer.” (I Peter 4:7)

    77. "For it is time for judgment to begin with the household of God.” (I Peter 4:17)

    78. “…as your fellow elder and witness of the sufferings of Christ, and a partaker also of the glory that is about to be revealed.” (I Peter 5:1)

    79. “We have the prophetic word …which you do well to pay attention as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the Day dawns and the morning star arises in your hearts.” (II Peter 1:19)

    80. “Their judgment from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep.” (II Peter 2:3)

    81. “In the last days mockers will come. …For this they willingly are ignorant of…” (I Peter 3:3,5)

    82. “But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up. Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God.” (II Peter 3:10-12)

    83. “The darkness is passing away, and the true light is already shining.” (I Jn. 2:8)

    84. “The world is passing away, and its desires.” (I Jn. 2:17)

    85. “It is the last hour.” (I Jn. 2:18)

    86. “Even now many antichrists have arisen; from this we know that it is the last hour.” (I Jn. 2:18; Compare Matt. 24:23-34)

    87. “This is that of the antichrist, of which you have heard that it is coming, and now it is already in the world.” (I Jn. 4:3; Compare II Thess. 2:7)

    88. “For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation. …About these also Enoch …prophesied, saying, 'Behold, the Lord came with many thousands of His holy ones, to execute judgment upon all, and to convict all the ungodly…'” (Jude 1:4,14-15)

    89. “But you, beloved, ought to remember the words that were spoken beforehand by the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ, that they were saying to you, 'In the last time there shall be mockers, following after their own ungodly lusts.' These are the ones who cause divisions…” (Jude 1:17-19)

    90. “…to show to His bond-servants, the things which must shortly take place.” (Rev. 1:1)

    91. “The time is near.” (Rev. 1:3)

    92. “Nevertheless what you have, hold fast until I come.” (Rev. 2:25)

    93. “I also will keep you from the hour of testing which is about to come upon the whole world.” (Rev. 3:10)

    94. “I am coming quickly.” (Rev. 3:11)

    95. “And she gave birth to a son, a male child, who is about to rule all the nations with a rod of iron.” (Rev. 12:5)

    96. "And in her [the Great City Babylon] was found the blood of prophets and of saints and of all who have been slain on the earth." (Rev. 18:24; Compare Matt. 23:35-36; Lk. 11:50-51)

    97. “…to show to His bond-servants the things which must shortly take place.” (Rev. 22:6)

    98. "Behold, I am coming quickly. " (Rev. 22:7)

    99. "Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near." (Rev. 22:10; Compare Dan. 8:26)

    100. "Behold, I am coming quickly.” (Rev. 22:12)

    101. "Yes, I am coming quickly." (Rev. 22:20
     
  20. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    For those interested in historical accuracy, ignore Wikipedia, which is not allowed as a source for research papers done at any Bible college.
     
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