Salvation by the work of attaining God’s attention

[agedman]

i have permission to post a quote that in my view presented salvation as the result of and response to some effort, action, or work done by the unredeemed.

The quote is taken from a longer post, but this single part shows the truth behind the concept presented.

The ungodly lost spiritually dead individuals first put their wholehearted trust in Christ, and then if God credits that faith as righteousness, He transfers them into Christ where they undergo the circumcision of Christ, the washing of regeneration and arise in Christ a new creation, made righteous, blameless and perfect. Thus the justification occrs after God puts a believer into Christ.
(written by Van in this link)

Look carefully at what is presented.

1). The “ungodly lost spiritually dead individuals FIRST”

Now, is it not true that “faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God?” So what is FIRST?

Is it not faith?

Then it must be that the individual IS NOT ungodly, lost, spiritually dead.

What then is the core estate of such a person? Quickened.

2). “then if God credits that faith as righteousness, He transfers them into Christ ...”

See the word “credits?” That is a word used as one who is owed a manner of reimbursement for that accomplished. It is also used as one who is owed a debt attributing in some manner a reduction or payment on the debt for action done by the one who is in debt.

As used in the quote, God waits to see IF someone offers at some indeterminable level such a quality of effort that God will “credit” that person as acceptable to be transferred into Christ.

There is no other reading that does not present that salvation is not the gift of God but attained by human achievement.

Then this part:

3). “Thus the justification occrs after God puts a believer into Christ.”

So one is a believer before being put “into Christ?”

That is not Scripturally sound.

John states, that the one who believes is not condemned and the ones who don’t are ALREADY condemned.

So when does justification actually occur?

Romans 5: “1Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2through whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand; ...”.

The justification is placed in the context of having already occurred by faith. That such faith also escorts the believer into the unmerited strength and steadfastness to stand.

Further, Romans 5 states: “9Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him. 10For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. 11And not only this, but we also exult in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.”

What justifies? His blood

Who is justified by the blood? All who were enemies of God.

What was actually done at salvation? “We received the reconciliation.”

So, it is now open for all to contend.

Although it is wearisome, this thread is most important, that the truth be shown.

 

[Jerome]

one is a believer before being put “into Christ?” That is not Scripturally sound.

Reformed Baptist theologian Timothy George, in Theology of the Reformers (Nashville: Broadman, 1988) p. 225:

being placed into Christ (insitio in Christo) occurs in regeneration which, Calvin was careful to point out, follows from faith as its result

 

[Deacon]

Order of Salvation arguments will not cease until we hear directly from the Master.
IMHO only God has a stopwatch accurate enough to measure the timing of these wondrous mysteries

This might be off topic - my apologies if it strays afar.

I've interviewed some people that were raised in a Christian environment and know they are saved but can not really estimate when it happened.
When did they have faith? When were they justified? The important fact is that we can be assured that we have eternal life by faith.

I'm teaching form Matthew 3 tomorrow with an emphasis on the topic of repentance

God desires it from believers and unbelievers

Therefore, having overlooked the times of ignorance, God now commands all people everywhere to repent, (Acts 17:30 CSB)
​

When repentance used as a synonym for faith, it is a condition for eternal life.

Repentance does not always lead to faith (Jonah 3:5-10) but it gets God's attention (vs 10).

The act of repentance is a beginning point to faith and like a chemical reaction; sometimes there is no interaction, sometimes the interaction is sluggish and takes time, and other-times it is quite explosive!

Rob

 

[agedman]

Order of Salvation arguments will not cease until we hear directly from the Master.
IMHO only God has a stopwatch accurate enough to measure the timing of these wondrous mysteries

This might be off topic - my apologies if it strays afar.

I've interviewed some people that were raised in a Christian environment and know they are saved but can not really estimate when it happened.
When did they have faith? When were they justified? The important fact is that we can be assured that we have eternal life by faith.

I'm teaching form Matthew 3 tomorrow with an emphasis on the topic of repentance

God desires it from believers and unbelievers

Therefore, having overlooked the times of ignorance, God now commands all people everywhere to repent, (Acts 17:30 CSB)
​

When repentance used as a synonym for faith, it is a condition for eternal life.

Repentance does not always lead to faith (Jonah 3:5-10) but it gets God's attention (vs 10).

The act of repentance is a beginning point to faith and like a chemical reaction; sometimes there is no interaction, sometimes the interaction is sluggish and takes time, and other-times it is quite explosive!

Rob

No doubt.

However what should not be questioned as wrong is that which is the quoted statement appoints MUST BE DONE FIRST which is human effort and IF preformed to some undetermined level, would activate God’s attention.

That is clearly a work based salvation.

The core person must be changed and then confession is made.

Like stated before, even the ungodly psychological folks recognize that unless the core value system is changed, there is no true change in a person. But when that change takes place, the person will verbalize it.

 

[Revmitchell]

No doubt.

However what should not be questioned as wrong is that which is the quoted statement appoints MUST BE DONE FIRST which is human effort and IF preformed to some undetermined level, would activate God’s attention.

That is clearly a work based salvation.

The core person must be changed and then confession is made.

Like stated before, even the ungodly psychological folks recognize that unless the core value system is changed, there is no true change in a person. But when that change takes place, the person will verbalize it.

Where in the world or in the depths of history and time has the receiving of a gift ever been also considered part of the giving of the gift?

 

[Reformed]

Where in the world or in the depths of history and time has the receiving of a gift ever been also considered part of the giving of the gift?

Allow me to direct you to a thread that asks the same question: Receiving a gift is not also part of the giving

 

[Reformed]

No doubt.

However what should not be questioned as wrong is that which is the quoted statement appoints MUST BE DONE FIRST which is human effort and IF preformed to some undetermined level, would activate God’s attention.

That is clearly a work based salvation.

The core person must be changed and then confession is made.

Like stated before, even the ungodly psychological folks recognize that unless the core value system is changed, there is no true change in a person. But when that change takes place, the person will verbalize it.

While I agree with you, let us also keep in mind that God is able to save even though some of our brethren may be in error. Most brethren in the Synergist camp hold to what I term a "happy inconsistency" in their soteriology. They confess the Synergist position but also claim God is completely sovereign in salvation. The two do not seem to make sense, but these brethren co-exist with both. Call it a form of theological cognitive dissonance. Of course, there are levels of error that one can hold to before they depart the faith completely. We are not judge and jury in those cases, although we are right to sound the alarm when those people influence others.

 

[agedman]

Where in the world or in the depths of history and time has the receiving of a gift ever been also considered part of the giving of the gift?

Already answered.

Perhaps you will find it.

 

[Revmitchell]

Already answered.

Perhaps you will find it.

No you didn't. You responded to it but you failed to actually answer the question. Big difference.

 

[agedman]

No you didn't. You responded to it but you failed to actually answer the question. Big difference.

It was answered, see the other thread somewhere around post #15.

However, like I stated previously, it was doubtful that it was the answer you desired that would in some manner validate your own view.

Rather, I posted a statement/question followed by a supporting Scripture.

That you don’t approve of the answer given does not negate that an answer was given.

Now it is your turn to deal specifically to the OP offered in this thread.

 

[Revmitchell]

It was answered, see the other thread somewhere around post #15.

However, like I stated previously, it was doubtful that it was the answer you desired that would in some manner validate your own view.

Rather, I posted a statement/question followed by a supporting Scripture.

That you don’t approve of the answer given does not negate that an answer was given.

Now it is your turn to deal specifically to the OP offered in this thread.

Uh no responding is one thing but answering is mother. You failed to do the latter.

 

[Revmitchell]

It's ok I'm used to it from cals

 

[agedman]

Uh no responding is one thing but answering is mother. You failed to do the latter.

So, perhaps you should demonstrate by modeling the answer for which you desired to see written.

Then present just how the quote does not present a work based salvation.

 

[Revmitchell]

So, perhaps you should demonstrate by modeling the answer for which you desired to see written.

Then present just how the quote does not present a work based salvation.

Where in the world or in the depths of history and time has the receiving of a gift ever been also considered part of the giving of the gift?

1. list all the times known to man where when receiving a gift in also considered part of the giving.
2. Do this without the presupposition of the calvinism debate.

 

[agedman]

It's ok I'm used to it from cals

Would it not be appropriate to take what I offered as answers, and attempt to show how “unbiblical” (heretical) such is and the level of more excellent thinking you can generate.

 

[Revmitchell]

Would it not be appropriate to take what I offered as answers, and attempt to show how “unbiblical” (heretical) such is and the level of more excellent thinking you can generate.

Your so called answer offered takes the discussion away from the topic I brought up.

 

[agedman]

Where in the world or in the depths of history and time has the receiving of a gift ever been also considered part of the giving of the gift?

1. list all the times known to man where when receiving a gift in also considered part of the giving.
2. Do this without the presupposition of the calvinism debate.

Did I not do so in the answers?

I assumed no point of view except that of what Scripture validated.

Post each response and show how a more excellent response should read.

 

[Revmitchell]

Did I not do so in the answers?

I assumed no point of view except that of what Scripture validated.

Post each response and show how a more excellent response should read.

Not until you actually answer my question

 

[agedman]

Your so called answer offered takes the discussion away from the topic I brought up.

So, show the more excellent answers.

 

[Revmitchell]

So, show the more excellent answers.

Uh no not going away from my point. That is called derailing