Salvation by the work of attaining God’s attention

[Martin Marprelate]

For clarification only.
Is it being suggested here that Paul was not an apostle?
If so, how does one account for Romans 1:1 and the introductions to most of the other Pauline letters?

 

[TCassidy]

Is it being suggested here that Paul was not an apostle?

Who said Paul was not an apostle?

 

[TCassidy]

You may not have meant to, but I think you did.

No, I didn't.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Who said Paul was not an apostle?

If someone had said that Paul was not an apostle I would not have needed to ask the question, would I?
Can I take your response as a 'no' then?

 

[Martin Marprelate]

As a very new Christian many years ago, it seemed to me that perhaps Peter and the other apostles exceeded their authority by drawing lots for a new colleague. After all, it was before Pentecost. So God ignored their choice of Matthias (who is never heard of again) and in His own good time chose the new 12th apostle Himself-- Paul.

Wiser folk than I have pooh-poohed this theory when I have suggested it, so I'm sure it must be wrong, but then I wonder.........

 

[TCassidy]

If someone had said that Paul was not an apostle I would not have needed to ask the question, would I?
Can I take your response as a 'no' then?

The question presupposes someone suggested exactly that. And nobody did.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

The question presupposes someone suggested exactly that. And nobody did.

Well somebody did write:

So you don't believe the Resurrection had to be physical and had to be witnessed by people? They walked with Him. They even touched Him. Can Paul say the same?

And I can't help but notice you ignored the other requirements established by Peter in Acts 1.

Was Paul with the Twelve from the time of John baptizing?

Was Paul with the Twelve when they witnessed Christ's ascension?

Let's face it. He just doesn't fit the criteria.

So I thought it was worthwhile asking the question.
But you have now answered it. Thank you.

 

[Jerome]

Mattius was the one chosen by tjem casting lots, , but really think that the casting of lots was not what the Lord wanted them to do, as paul was to be the real replacement!

As a very new Christian many years ago, it seemed to me that perhaps Peter and the other apostles exceeded their authority by drawing lots for a new colleague. After all, it was before Pentecost. So God ignored their choice of Matthias (who is never heard of again) and in His own good time chose the new 12th apostle Himself-- Paul. Wiser folk than I have pooh-poohed this theory when I have suggested it, so I'm sure it must be wrong, but then I wonder.........

In his commentary, Calvin had some choice words for that sort of thinking:

they use the casting of lots, that it might be known that Matthias was not only chosen by the voices of men, but also that he was made by the determination and judgment of God.

This was very orderly done, that the disciples should present unto God those whom they thought to be the best; and he should choose to himself whom he knew to be most fit, so that God, by the fall of the lot, doth pronounce that he did allow of the apostleship of Matthias

whosoever shall quietly ponder the matter shall plainly perceive, by the drift of Luke, that the disciples durst do nothing but that which they knew was their duty to do, and was commanded them by the Lord. As for the contentious, let them go shake their ears.

 

[percho]

So you want to use an example of someone God called who was to have seen Christ post resurrection and compare that to an every day salvation experience?

Yes.

And when there had been much dispute, Peter rose up and said to them: “Men and brethren, you know that a good while ago God chose among us, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe. “So God, who knows the heart, acknowledged them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He did to us, “and made no distinction between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. Acts 15:7-9 NKJV

Key words underlined.

Was Paul inclusive in the underlined, us?

15:14 NKJV “Simon has declared how God at the first visited the Gentiles to take out of them a people for His name.

Are those called today of the ones being called and taken out of the nations (the Gentiles)? Is that still going on today? Isn't that what is presently going on in the plan of God for salvation?

 

[Yeshua1]

That is what he stated as his own authority.

Which was true, as he met the risen Christ.

 

[Yeshua1]

'Am I not an apostle? Am I not free? Have I not seen Jesus Christ our Lord?' (1 Corinthians 9:1).
Paul was a witness of the resurrected Christ.

I still think the 12 Apostles in heaven that we will see will have Paul as the 12th, and not Matthius.

 

[TCassidy]

I still think the 12 Apostles in heaven that we will see will have Paul as the 12th, and not Matthius.

You think wrong.

Jesus calls them "the twelve" in many verses. For instance, Mark 6:7 He called to himself the twelve."

After the death of Judas they were called "the eleven." Such as here in Mark 16:14 "Afterward he was revealed to the eleven themselves as they sat at the table."

After the election of Matthias it says he was numbered with the eleven. Acts 1:26 They drew lots for them, and the lot fell on Matthias, and he was counted with the eleven apostles.

When it came time to elect deacons, they are again called "the twelve."
Acts 6:2 The twelve summoned the multitude of the disciples and said, “It is not appropriate for us to forsake the word of God and serve tables.

It could not have been referring to Paul as he was not saved until chapter 9. Matthias was the replacement for Judas, not Paul.

Matthias was one of The Twelve. An Apostle. Paul was a messenger apostle. In no way inferior to the others. Just a different ministry. The Twelve had been told to not go to the gentiles but only unto the house of Israel (Matthew10:6). Paul was specifically called (Acts13:47) and gifted (1 Corinthians 13:18) to preach to the gentiles.

When we see the Heavenly City it will the name of Matthias which we see on the foundation stone.

 

[Yeshua1]

You think wrong.

Jesus calls them "the twelve" in many verses. For instance, Mark 6:7 He called to himself the twelve."

After the death of Judas they were called "the eleven." Such as here in Mark 16:14 "Afterward he was revealed to the eleven themselves as they sat at the table."

After the election of Matthias it says he was numbered with the eleven. Acts 1:26 They drew lots for them, and the lot fell on Matthias, and he was counted with the eleven apostles.

When it came time to elect deacons, they are again called "the twelve."
Acts 6:2 The twelve summoned the multitude of the disciples and said, “It is not appropriate for us to forsake the word of God and serve tables.

It could not have been referring to Paul as he was not saved until chapter 9. Matthias was the replacement for Judas, not Paul.

Matthias was one of The Twelve. An Apostle. Paul was a messenger apostle. In no way inferior to the others. Just a different ministry. The Twelve had been told to not go to the gentiles but only unto the house of Israel (Matthew10:6). Paul was specifically called (Acts13:47) and gifted (1 Corinthians 13:18) to preach to the gentiles.

When we see the Heavenly City it will the name of Matthias which we see on the foundation stone.

Even though paul was the greatest of all of the Apostles in the sense of missionary work, and in theology?

 

[agedman]

Even though paul was the greatest of all of the Apostles in the sense of missionary work, and in theology?

Perhaps he wasn’t the greatest. Certainly, he was popular, and his writings more abundant.

But the evidence of greatness would then be established on education and writing profusely.


Scriptures state:

1At that time the disciples came to Jesus and asked, “Who, then, is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?”

2He called a little child to him, and placed the child among them. 3And he said: “Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. 4Therefore, whoever takes the lowly position of this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. 5And whoever welcomes one such child in my name welcomes me.​

 

[Yeshua1]

Perhaps he wasn’t the greatest. Certainly, he was popular, and his writings more abundant.

But the evidence of greatness would then be established on education and writing profusely.


Scriptures state:

1At that time the disciples came to Jesus and asked, “Who, then, is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?”

2He called a little child to him, and placed the child among them. 3And he said: “Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. 4Therefore, whoever takes the lowly position of this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. 5And whoever welcomes one such child in my name welcomes me.​

he was the greatest Missionary and theologian of the Church in history.

 

[agedman]

he was the greatest Missionary and theologian of the Church in history.

That was reflective of his training and experience.

But those are tools that God used, just as He equips each believer according to the purpose He determines.

However, such is not in itself a endowment of greatness, for the John the Baptist said God could raise from the stones sons of Abraham.

I am not discrediting any believer, but merely allowing that it is not given into even that hands of Christ who would be honored to sit next to Him. Greatness in Heaven is appointed by the Father.

 

[Yeshua1]

That was reflective of his training and experience.

But those are tools that God used, just as He equips each believer according to the purpose He determines.

However, such is not in itself a endowment of greatness, for the John the Baptist said God could raise from the stones sons of Abraham.

I am not discrediting any believer, but merely allowing that it is not given into even that hands of Christ who would be honored to sit next to Him. Greatness in Heaven is appointed by the Father.

Agreed, but just saying that the writer of Romans had to be the greatest theologian God ever gave to His church!

 

[TCassidy]

he was the greatest Missionary and theologian of the Church in history.

Who says?

 

[Martin Marprelate]

In his commentary, Calvin had some choice words for that sort of thinking:

Indeed so. But I can't help thinking that the apostles were instructed to wait in Jerusalem for the coming of the Spirit (Luke 24:49). Is it not possible that they were exceeding their brief by attempting to force God's hand in the matter of a new apostle?

However, it is a matter of little practical importance. I preach God's teaching through Paul; I would preach Matthias' also but he hasn't left any. If Matthias were alive today, what would he be telling us? He'd be telling us to read Paul's letters and treat them as Scripture, just like Peter did (2 Peter 3:15).

 

[Squire Robertsson]

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