Why [I believe] Premillennialism is false

[Reformed]

There are some Reformed Baptist Pre-Mil, Pre-Trib Dispensationalists.

The most famous would be John MacArthur.

Closer to home is our own Dr. Bob Griffin. He has had some health issues lately but the next time he is on (or PM him) and ask him about it. He will be more than glad to explain it to you.

True. But I would not say they are Reformed theologians. They are Calvinistic Baptists.

 

[David Kent]

Evidence?
Evidence?

Jesuit Alcazar taught preterism

Jesuits Ribera, Ballarmine, and others taught

FUTURISM

Francisco Ribera (1537-1591) was a Jesuit doctor of theology, born in Spain, who began writing a lengthy (500 page) commentary in 1585 on the book of Revelation (Apocalypse) titled In Sacrum Beati Ioannis Apostoli, & Evangelistiae Apocalypsin Commentarij, and published it about the year 1590. He died in 1591 at the age of fifty-four, so he was not able to expand on his work or write any other commentaries on Revelation. In order to remove the Catholic Church from consideration as the antichrist power, Ribera proposed that the first few chapters of the Apocalypse applied to ancient pagan Rome, and the rest he limited to a yet future period of 3 1/2 literal years, immediately prior to the second coming. During that time, the Roman Catholic Church would have fallen away from the pope into apostasy. Then, he proposed, the antichrist, a single individual, would:

• Persecute and blaspheme the saints of God.
• Rebuild the temple in Jerusalem.
• Abolish the Christian religion.
• Deny Jesus Christ.
• Be received by the Jews.
• Pretend to be God.
• Kill the two witnesses of God.
• Conquer the world.

Cardinal Robert Bellarmine, one of the best known Jesuit apologists, published a work between 1581 and 1593 entitled Polemic Lectures Concerning the Disputed Points of the Christian Belief Against the Heretics of This Time, in which he also denied the day = year principle in prophecy and pushed the reign of antichrist into a future period of 3 1/2 literal years.

Recently reprinted: A treatise of Antichrist. Conteyning the defence of Cardinall Bellarmines arguments, which inuincibly demonstrate, that the pope is not Antichrist. Against George Downam by Michael Christopherson priest ..., Volume 1 of 2 by Michael Walpole (1570-1624?), a 1974 reprint of a 1613 edition, by Scolar Press Limited, Ilkley, England, ISBN 0859672042.

 

[Reformed]

I don't see why not, the early teachers of the theory, Irving (Presbyterian) and Darby (Anglican) were both Calvinist. Although one of Darby's early colleagues in the Brethren, B W Newton. later said he thought Darby was a Jesuit.
I asked my Dad, who had researched Darby thoroughly for years, if he had heard of that, and he said "No, but I wouldn't be surprised, he certainly taught Jesuit doctrines."

The key term is "Reformed theology". As I said in my previous post in this thread, they are Calvinistic Baptists. Reformed theology is more appropriately termed Covenant Theology. Covenant Theology and Dispensationalism are the antheses of each other.

 

[David Kent]

Manuel De Lacunza (1731–1801), a Jesuit from Chile, wrote a manuscript in Spanish titled La Venida del Mesías en Gloria y Magestad ("The Coming of the Messiah in Glory and Majesty"), under the pen name of Juan Josafa [Rabbi] Ben-Ezra about 1791. Lacunza wrote under an assumed Jewish name to obscure the fact that he was a Catholic, in order to give his book better acceptance in Protestantism, his intended audience. Also an advocate of Futurism, Lacunza was deliberately attempting to take the pressure off the papacy by proposing that the Antichrist was still off in the future. His manuscript was published in London, Spain, Mexico and Paris between 1811 and 1826.

La Venida del Mesías en Gloria y Magestad online at the National Library of Chile (in Spanish).

 

[David Kent]

Edward Irving (1792-1834), a Scottish Presbyterian and forerunner of the Pentecostal and Charismatic movements, translated Lacunza's work from Spanish into English in a book titled The Coming of Messiah in Glory and Majesty with a Preliminary Discourse, published in London in 1827 by L.B. Seeley & Sons, which included Irving's own lengthy preface. Here are excerpts from Irving's translation:

Lacunza asserts that Antichrist would appear near the end of time:

That there shall be an Antichrist; that he shall be revealed, and publicly declared, towards the last times; and that he shall commit in the world the greatest evils, making formal war against Christ, and all that pertains to him; —these are three certain things, of which no Christian can doubt. -- Vol. I, Part II, Phenomenon III, pg. 259.

Antichrist, Lacunza concludes, would not be just one man:

ACCORDING to all the signs given in the Holy Scriptures, and others, not equivocal, offered to us by time, which is wont to be the best interpreter of the prophecies, the antichrist, or the contrachrist, with whom we stand threatened in the times immediate upon the coming of the Lord, is nothing but a moral body, composed of innumerable individuals, diverse in themselves, but all morally united and animated with one common spirit, against the Lord and against his Christ; -- Vol. I, Part II, Phenomenon III, pg. 260.

As to the harlot woman riding the beast in Revelation 17, Lacunza acknowledges it is indeed referring to Rome:

... the doctors do all agree, that the woman here spoken of is the city of Rome, in other times the capital of the greatest empire in the world, and now the capital and centre of unity of the true Christian church. On this first point, which is not called in question, there is no occasion to tarry. -- Vol. I, Part II, Phenomenon III, pg. 288.

... it is not present Rome which is at all spoken of here, but future Rome alone to which the prophecy hath its determinate application. -- Vol. I, Part II, Phenomenon III, pg. 295.

Rome yes, Lacunza agrees, but not the Roman Catholic Church of his day, which he calls the true church, rather he pushes this prophecy in Revelation 17 off into the future:

Rome, not idolatrous but Christian, not the head of the Roman empire but the head of Christendom, and centre of unity of the true church of the living God, may very well, without ceasing from this dignity, at some time or other incur the guilt, and before God be held guilty of fornication with the kings of the earth, and amenable to all its consequences. And in this there is not any inconsistency, however much her defenders may shake the head. And this same Rome, in that same state, may receive upon herself the horrible chastisement spoken of in the prophecy; -- Vol. I, Part II, Phenomenon III, pg. 296.

This apostate Christian group termed Antichrist would be:

... slain and destroyed by Christ himself in the great day of his coming in glory and majesty. -- Vol. I, Part II, Phenomenon IV, pg. 321.

 

[David Kent]

Margaret McDonald, a 15 year old Scottish girl, and member of Edward Irving's congregation, had visions in early 1830 that included a Secret Rapture of believers before the appearance of the Antichrist. She informed Irving of her visions by letter. Irving then attended the prophecy conferences that began in Dublin Ireland in 1830 at Powerscourt Castle, where he promoted bothFuturism and a Secret Rapture.

Samuel Roffey Maitland (1792-1866), scholar and librarian to the Archbishop of Canterbury, further promoted and established Futurism in England after 1826, as a result of reading the work of Manuel De Lacunza.

John Nelson Darby (1800–1882), a Church of Ireland clergyman, later with the Plymouth Brethren, also promoted Futurism and a secret rapture. Darby attended the series of meetings on Bible Prophecy that began in 1830 at Powerscourt, Ireland, and at these conferences Darby apparently learned about the secret rapture as revealed by vision to Margaret McDonald, and promoted by Edward Irving, and he soon visited Margaret MacDonald at her home in Port Glasgow, Scotland. Darby later visited America several times between 1859 and 1874, where his Futurist theology was readily accepted.

Samuel Prideaux Tregelles (1813-1875), formerly with the Plymouth Brethren, he became Presbyterian, and published The Hope Of Christ's Second Coming in 1864, in which he gave the following testimony on the origin of the secret rapture:

"I am not aware that there was any definite teaching that there would be a secret rapture of the Church at a secret coming, until this was given forth as an "utterance" in Mr. Irving’s Church, from what was there received as being the voice of the Spirit. But whether any one ever asserted such a thing or not, it was from that supposed revelation that the modern doctrine and the modern phraseology respecting it arose. It came not from Holy Scripture, but from that which falsely pretended to be the Spirit of God, while not owning the true doctrine of our Lord’s incarnation in the same flesh and blood as His brethren, but without taint of sin." -- Footnote 1 for Chapter 9, pg 35.

Cyrus Ingerson Scofield (1843-1921), greatly influenced by the writings of J. N. Darby, incorporated Futurism in the notes of his Scofield Reference Bible. First published by Oxford University Press in 1909, one million copies were printed by 1930. The Scofield Bible was instrumental in firmly establishing the Jesuit inspired Futurist interpretation in the Protestant Bible schools of the United States in the 20th century.

 

[David Kent]

Edward Irving wrote in his Morning Watch magazine that he first taught dispensationalism on Christmas Day 1826 then again a year later. If you want to look it up you will find all the volumes on Google Books. I wasn't looking for anything in particular, just to see what he taught but came across that fairly early. I didn't read much further as it all seemed rather boring.

That would be four years before Margaret McDonald had her visions, She was more likely to have learnt it from Irving.

 

[Revmitchell]

Edward Irving wrote in his Morning Watch magazine that he first taught dispensationalism on Christmas Day 1826 then again a year later. If you want to look it up you will find all the volumes on Google Books. I wasn't looking for anything in particular, just to see what he taught but came across that fairly early. I didn't read much further as it all seemed rather boring.

That would be four years before Margaret McDonald had her visions, She was more likely to have learnt it from Irving.

So your source for all of this is that angelfire website? Really?

 

[TCassidy]

Jesuit Alcazar taught preterism

Jesuits Ribera, Ballarmine, and others taught

They also taught the Trinity. Does that mean the originated that doctrine?

 

[David Kent]

So your source for all of this is that angelfire website? Really?

That is not the only site that has the information. I chose that as it had the best pictures which \I shoed tokl. It seems that

Larking in hit book Dispensational truth says that the ECF taught pre trib, but that is false, some may have been millenialist but not all. Tertullian said that after Roman empire was removed the man of sin or antichrist would arise reign for 3½ years and then would come the end of all things. Larkin said that fell out of favour until the Jesuits reinvented it in the 16th century and was "Wonderfully revived" into the protestant denominations in the early early 19th century,

 

[Revmitchell]

That is not the only site that has the information. I chose that as it had the best pictures which \I shoed tokl. It seems that

Larking in hit book Dispensational truth says that the ECF taught pre trib, but that is false, some may have been millenialist but not all. Tertullian said that after Roman empire was removed the man of sin or antichrist would arise reign for 3½ years and then would come the end of all things. Larkin said that fell out of favour until the Jesuits reinvented it in the 16th century and was "Wonderfully revived" into the protestant denominations in the early early 19th century,

Good luck with that.

 

[Yeshua1]

That is not the only site that has the information. I chose that as it had the best pictures which \I shoed tokl. It seems that

Larking in hit book Dispensational truth says that the ECF taught pre trib, but that is false, some may have been millenialist but not all. Tertullian said that after Roman empire was removed the man of sin or antichrist would arise reign for 3½ years and then would come the end of all things. Larkin said that fell out of favour until the Jesuits reinvented it in the 16th century and was "Wonderfully revived" into the protestant denominations in the early early 19th century,

There can be no doubt that the majority of ECF held to some form of premil, as that was the dominant position until Augustine made AMil the primary one, once his views on how to understand prophecy came into vogue!

 

[Yeshua1]

They also taught the Trinity. Does that mean the originated that doctrine?

They also taught the Trinity. Does that mean the originated that doctrine?

Well, paul taught calvinism before wither Augustine or Calvin did!

 

[David Kent]

The ECF nearly all taught that the let and hindrance in 2 Thess 2 was the Emperor and the Empire.I have before me a book by and English lawyer, Robert Baxter IRVINGISM in its RISE, PROGRESS AND PRESENT STATE, 1836. Baxter had been leading prophet in Irving's Charismatic movement.
When Irving first preached futurism, Baxter was one of the prophets that confirmed the teaching. But someone showed him that one of Irving's other teaching was false, that "Christ had a propensity for sin." Baxter said that Irving did not teach that, and that he wrote to the pastor to check, but Irving replied that is what he did believe. Baxter then checked all the teachings and found he had another teaching just as bad, that he believed in and actual righteousness rather than an imputed righteousness of the saints. He also checked the charismatic teachings and found them wanting, so he left the movement. In a letter to one of the Irvingites, Mr Armstrong, dated August 3d (sic) 1835, Baxter says

• My desire was to call back your mind to the days when our poor dear brother Irving was sojourning among us. When we all received the utterances, as declaring the coming of our Lord and the rapture of his saints at the end of three years and a half from the 14th January 1832—as declaring that within that time apostolic powers would be bestowed, and men of God would, in the full endowment of the powers of the spirit would have made the circuit of the earth, would have gathered the Lord’s elect from the four winds, and made ready the people prepared for their Lord: that these would be caught up, and on the day which the three years and a half expired-- the church of God being caught up, the earth would be delivered over to Judgement without a preacher and without a tabernacle. This my dear brother, you know was declared. was believed and was waited for; it was not alone by my utterance, but by the utterance of everyone who spoke, It was not alone when I was with you, but long after I left you, declared to be the truth; It was not alone expected at the commencement of this term; but it hes been repeated more or less through the whole course of the term; and all your churches (as you call them) were summoned for Sunday 14th July-- that being the day of the termination of the term— to await the fulfilment of what you deemed to be his word.

So we see that the group who wonderfully revived the Jesuit teaching in the protestant churches used the "prophets" to endorse that false teaching because as Baxter also said.

• The idol of the Irvingites is the power of utterance. This they implicitly obey as the voice of God. To the worship of this, this all the signs and wonders which are manifested bring them.

 

[David Kent]

There can be no doubt that the majority of ECF held to some form of premil, as that was the dominant position until Augustine made AMil the primary one, once his views on how to understand prophecy came into vogue!

Depends what you call premil. The majority didn't preach pre trib, if any of them did,

 

[David Kent]

They also taught the Trinity. Does that mean the originated that doctrine?

No the word "trinity" originated from about AD 300.

 

[David Kent]

Good luck with that.

I don t believe in Luck.

 

[TCassidy]

No the word "trinity" originated from about AD 300.

Yeah. The Catholic church. So, according to your theory anything the RCC believes must be wrong?

 

[Martin Marprelate]

There can be no doubt that the majority of ECF held to some form of premil, as that was the dominant position until Augustine made Amil the primary one, once his views on how to understand prophecy came into vogue!

There is also no doubt that the majority of ECFs believed in baptismal regeneration.
What inference would you have us draw? I draw Isaiah 8:20.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

So your source for all of this is that angelfire website? Really?

I can vouch for what Mr Kent has written concerning Edward Irving, and Ben Ezra/Lacunza. The details can be found in The Life of Edward Irving by Arnold Dallimore, published by Banner of Truth.