None of it offends me or my understanding. It is just not in the Bible.
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Martin Luther and the Atonement (theories of atonement)
- Thread starter JonC
- Start date
My understanding was that Jesus actually did experience "hell" while upon the Cross, as being the Sin bearer, he was forsaken in His humanity by the father, and so felt whatever we would feel if still lost in our sins while facing wrath of God in judgement for our sins.
Jesus became our very substitution, bore that wrath of the Father in our place.
Whatever lost sinners experience in the Judgement Jesus tasted in full while upon that Cross.
Jesus became our very substitution, bore that wrath of the Father in our place.
Whatever lost sinners experience in the Judgement Jesus tasted in full while upon that Cross.
Yes, but the truth is still that both of them saw Jesus as being the sin bearer in our stead before God.
Lost sinners experience an eternity of hell, being isolated and forsaken by God presence, and so why would not jesus experience that same there, for while there on the Cross, it was just as if God was placing his wrath for our sin debt upon you and I, its that Jesus was taking it in our place!
Certainly!
But, like viewing from the precipice, the view takes the perspective of from what position one arrives.
Should one arrive exhausted in the struggle, the picture is somewhat different than one who arrives by helicopter. One may view the scene from the perspective that it was worth the struggle, while the other gazes at the scene as one in a comparison to others seen.
Attitudes change perspectives.
Specifically to Calvin in comparison to Luther, their own training and backgrounds coupled with the current struggles and desires would greatly influence even the choice of words that used.
What manner of "hell?"
What exactly did the suffering on the cross include that has not been done to others at some other point in history?
That is not to diminish the suffering, rather to show that the suffering savior was a fulfillment of prophecy about a specific person to differentiate them from all suffering.
So what was the most important aspect of the cross. NOT the suffering (as important as that is) but the blood shed in death.
The reconciliation isn't offered upon the suffering, but upon the propitiation (the actual blood shed) for all. (1 John 2)
Too much is made (imo) in PST with the suffering, and not about that which was the absolute primary purpose - reconciliation between God and man.
Are lost sinners "isolated and forsaken by God('s) presence" in hell or even the lake of fire?
The only example I can think of is that related by the Lord concerning the rich man and Lazarus.
In that example, God was not "isolated" nor was He forsaking the concerns of the rich man.
As it pertains to the Cross.
Christ statement "is taken as" but we have to understand that it is the single time that we see the Lord speaking to the Father in a manner that the listeners did not completely comprehend.
This does not cast a shadow on the statement, rather it does not mean that God abandoned the Son.
Forsake does not always mean abandon. It also means to withhold. As a parent might not immediately rush to the aid of a child that has tripped, or immediately give in to a request.
None of this removes either the suffering or the conditions of the Cross as being horrible. The cross was designed and purposed to be both painful and lasting terror until death would finally claim the victim. It also presents as no greater suffering than was common in that day to any on a cross.
Why would He? Jesus was not a lost sinner and condeming the righteous is an abomination to God. You are superimposing a false context.
A slight shift in the topic, but hopefully not to detract.
Often when speaking of the body of the Lord, we see him as John "a lamb slain" and as the disciples - bearing the marks of Calvary.
Often it is pictured that the believers' new bodies will be unmarked, and unblemished.
But what of the Scripture statements?
Is there Scripture authority for such thinking as it relates to our own new body?
Certainly we shall be like Him, but does that mean we too will carry the scars that the ugliness the world "crushed" us will also be that seen?
Where are the Scripture statements that indicate the new body carries no identifiers of the service?
I'm not sure. John saw Jesus resurrected and he said that we don't know as yet what we will be. But we know when He appears we will be like Him.
Is “like him” in ability to know as we are known?
Is it in unhindered by the natural as constrains this present condition?
The prophets and NT seem somewhat silent, unless the good folks of the B.B. can present something this agedman hasn’t yet found.
One thing, I long for that which is prepared for me.
At that moment while upon the Cross, and suffering the full wrath of God, the father treated Him who knew no sin as if he was the sum of all sinners to get saved by His death!
Jesus never became a real sinner, but experience the same hell sinners will in eternity while upob the Cross....
Does not 2 Cor. State “He became sin...”
No living in this existence ever experiences the “Lake of Fire.”
And, it would be impossible for Christ to be cast into such a place as there is no escape.
This thread seems to place great emphasis upon the suffering, when the NT seems to stress the accomplishment.
Does the Scripture actually state Christ was “upon the Cross, (and) suffering the full wrath of God” or is that your assumption?
What IS IMPORTANT is the results of the cross.
.
Romans 5 declares “For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly”
Considering that statement, there is room for emphasis on the suffering, but as the Scriptures show, such should be viewed not as God delivering wrath, but God providing salvation.
For if any wrath of God is displayed at the Cross it is at the point of the statement “teleó” - the last recorded word spoken by Christ on the Cross.
Finished, it is over, done.
Why is that important?
Consider the pure Christ taking all that is ungodly upon Himself, has at the last breath (so indicated) said that the mater was complete.
There is no wrath to be seen, not at the cross and not shown in the heavens. The picture is more clear from John’s account of what actually transpired at BOTH places. John 19, and also Revelations 5.
1I saw in the right hand of Him who sat on the throne a book written inside and on the back, sealed up with seven seals. 2And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, “Who is worthy to open the book and to break its seals?” 3And no one in heaven or on the earth or under the earth was able to open the book or to look into it. 4Then I began to weep greatly because no one was found worthy to open the book or to look into it; 5and one of the elders said to me, “Stop weeping; behold, the Lion that is from the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has overcome so as to open the book and its seven seals.”
6And I saw between the throne (with the four living creatures) and the elders a Lamb standing, as if slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God, sent out into all the earth. 7And He came and took the book out of the right hand of Him who sat on the throne. 8When He had taken the book, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each one holding a harp and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. 9And they sang a new song, saying,
“Worthy are You to take the book and to break its seals; for You were slain, and purchased for God with Your blood men from every tribe and tongue and people and nation.
10“You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God; and they will reign upon the earth.”
11Then I looked, and I heard the voice of many angels around the throne and the living creatures and the elders; and the number of them was myriads of myriads, and thousands of thousands, 12saying with a loud voice,
“Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power and riches and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing.”
13And every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard saying, “To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever.”
14And the four living creatures kept saying, “Amen.” And the elders fell down and worshiped.
. Romans 5 declares “For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly”
Considering that statement, there is room for emphasis on the suffering, but as the Scriptures show, such should be viewed not as God delivering wrath, but God providing salvation.
For if any wrath of God is displayed at the Cross it is at the point of the statement “teleó” - the last recorded word spoken by Christ on the Cross.
Finished, it is over, done.
Why is that important?
Consider the pure Christ taking all that is ungodly upon Himself, has at the last breath (so indicated) said that the mater was complete.
There is no wrath to be seen, not at the cross and not shown in the heavens. The picture is more clear from John’s account of what actually transpired at BOTH places. John 19, and also Revelations 5.
1I saw in the right hand of Him who sat on the throne a book written inside and on the back, sealed up with seven seals. 2And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, “Who is worthy to open the book and to break its seals?” 3And no one in heaven or on the earth or under the earth was able to open the book or to look into it. 4Then I began to weep greatly because no one was found worthy to open the book or to look into it; 5and one of the elders said to me, “Stop weeping; behold, the Lion that is from the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has overcome so as to open the book and its seven seals.”
6And I saw between the throne (with the four living creatures) and the elders a Lamb standing, as if slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God, sent out into all the earth. 7And He came and took the book out of the right hand of Him who sat on the throne. 8When He had taken the book, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each one holding a harp and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. 9And they sang a new song, saying,
“Worthy are You to take the book and to break its seals; for You were slain, and purchased for God with Your blood men from every tribe and tongue and people and nation.
10“You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God; and they will reign upon the earth.”
11Then I looked, and I heard the voice of many angels around the throne and the living creatures and the elders; and the number of them was myriads of myriads, and thousands of thousands, 12saying with a loud voice,
“Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power and riches and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing.”
13And every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard saying, “To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever.”
14And the four living creatures kept saying, “Amen.” And the elders fell down and worshiped.
How could Jesus actually be before God my substitute, if God did not treat Him as he would have me in the Judgement for sins?What IS IMPORTANT is the results of the cross.
Romans 5 declares “For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly”
Considering that statement, there is room for emphasis on the suffering, but as the Scriptures show, such should be viewed not as God delivering wrath, but God providing salvation.
For if any wrath of God is displayed at the Cross it is at the point of the statement “teleó” - the last recorded word spoken by Christ on the Cross.
Finished, it is over, done.
Why is that important?
Consider the pure Christ taking all that is ungodly upon Himself, has at the last breath (so indicated) said that the mater was complete.
There is no wrath to be seen, not at the cross and not shown in the heavens. The picture is more clear from John’s account of what actually transpired at BOTH places. John 19, and also Revelations 5.
1I saw in the right hand of Him who sat on the throne a book written inside and on the back, sealed up with seven seals. 2And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, “Who is worthy to open the book and to break its seals?” 3And no one in heaven or on the earth or under the earth was able to open the book or to look into it. 4Then I began to weep greatly because no one was found worthy to open the book or to look into it; 5and one of the elders said to me, “Stop weeping; behold, the Lion that is from the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has overcome so as to open the book and its seven seals.”
6And I saw between the throne (with the four living creatures) and the elders a Lamb standing, as if slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God, sent out into all the earth. 7And He came and took the book out of the right hand of Him who sat on the throne. 8When He had taken the book, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each one holding a harp and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. 9And they sang a new song, saying,
“Worthy are You to take the book and to break its seals; for You were slain, and purchased for God with Your blood men from every tribe and tongue and people and nation.
10“You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God; and they will reign upon the earth.”
11Then I looked, and I heard the voice of many angels around the throne and the living creatures and the elders; and the number of them was myriads of myriads, and thousands of thousands, 12saying with a loud voice,
“Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power and riches and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing.”
13And every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard saying, “To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever.”
14And the four living creatures kept saying, “Amen.” And the elders fell down and worshiped.
What is actually seen on the Cross?
Did not humans inflict the suffering?
The wrath of God in the Scripture always comes by use of nature and human force.
There is only one time that Scriptures show God actually taking direct physical involvement, and that is at the second coming in which the world forces and systems are literally crushed by His sword.
The wrath was seen in both human and nature at the cross.
This is consistent with all Scripture in which the Wrath of God is displayed.
In every instance in Scripture, the wrath of God is manifest when God withholds or with draws His approval and care. At that point, both human and/or nature are no longer restrained by that which is Godly.
God did not remove from Christ, but rather withheld Himself as a parent might. God did not inflict, but allowed that which was inflicted. God cannot oppose Himself and bring suffering to Himself. “He was wounded, He was bruised, He endured chastisement...”. He did not do it to Himself, but allowed it to be done.
Just as that lamb of the OT was slain by human effort, yet the blood was the satisfaction, so then that of the Cross.
When John addresses this aspect of the atonement, unlike Paul who is about the furniture, John is about the actual blood.
How and the manner certainly are important from the standpoint of prophecy and type fulfillment but without the blood there is no cancellation of the debt, no “teleo’” pronounced.
Am I perceiving that some would desire to have God in some manner beating, bruising, condemning, Himself? At times, that seems to be the force behind the argument. That in some manner God was never “well pleased” with the Son. It was never the case.
The Father was and remained well pleased even throughout the cross.
10But the LORD was pleased
To crush Him, putting Him to grief;
If He would render Himself as a guilt offering,
He will see His offspring,
He will prolong His days,
And the good pleasure of the LORD will prosper in His hand. (Isaiah 53:10)