Poor proof that Christ has a physical body now

[asterisktom]

John of Japan asked me (and I wasn't able to see it until now):

"So when Christ came spiritually in AD 70, where was His dead body? "The body without the spirit is dead" (James 2:26)."

First of all, for those who may not know, my only times on Internet are either here in the library or at a relatives. Either is far from where I live. SO I just now saw this. ANd - par for the course - was unable to answer in the thread. That is why I started it here.

I am surprised, John, that you would even use this verse to try to prove your point. You do know the context is about how man - fallible man - can be justified. Just because Christ took on flesh does not mean that every single "body" or "flesh" verse necessarily tells us about Christ now.

Or should I, using this same lexical desperation of yours, say that because of Matt. 26:41:

"All of you must stay awake and pray that you won't be tempted. The spirit is indeed willing, but the body is weak."

we may now prove that Christ is currently weak, seeing that He has a body?

 

[Revmitchell]

Or should I, using this same lexical desperation of yours, say that because of Matt. 26:41:

And here is an example of why things stay so heated around here.

 

[HankD]

In all fairness Tom futurists believe that Jesus' body is not only His resurrected body but a glorified resurrected body made alive by the Spirit of God and therefore by no means weak.

1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit

John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

John 17:24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.


1 Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.


HankD

 

[asterisktom]

And here is an example of why things stay so heated around here.

More light then heat in that comment of mine. Anyway, the comment is to John, not you. I suspect that he knows he is pulling a verse out of context. And, yes, it is desperation if he has to use this verse to prove that point.

 

[asterisktom]

In all fairness Tom futurists believe that Jesus' body is not only His resurrected body but a glorified resurrected body made alive by the Spirit of God and therefore by no means weak.

1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit

John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

John 17:24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.


1 Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.


HankD

Yes, I know that Hank. But you miss my point. All I am saying is that John's use of his verse is the same as my using a verse to (fallaciously) prove that Christ is now weak.

 

[HankD]

Yes, I know that Hank. But you miss my point. All I am saying is that John's use of his verse is the same as my using a verse to (fallaciously) prove that Christ is now weak.

Again, it has been years since there was what I call the preterist donnybrook here at the BB - My current comments are also for folks to get caught up on what was "debated" in the good old days.

HankD

 

[John of Japan]

John of Japan asked me (and I wasn't able to see it until now):

"So when Christ came spiritually in AD 70, where was His dead body? "The body without the spirit is dead" (James 2:26)."

And with this post you still have not answered my question. Let me rephrase it. Does Christ have a physical body now? If so, does He somehow detach His spirit from His body occasionally? Especially in AD 70?

If Christ no longer has a physical body, what in the world kind of body does He have? There is no such thing as a non-corporeal body. The very word "body" demands physical substance.

First of all, for those who may not know, my only times on Internet are either here in the library or at a relatives. Either is far from where I live. SO I just now saw this. ANd - par for the course - was unable to answer in the thread. That is why I started it here.

You not only missed my direct question on that thread, you missed an entire thread on this subject in which I presented many arguments: "Christology and Preterism."

I am surprised, John, that you would even use this verse to try to prove your point. You do know the context is about how man - fallible man - can be justified. Just because Christ took on flesh does not mean that every single "body" or "flesh" verse necessarily tells us about Christ now.

I don't want to misrepresent you. If I get you correctly from the thread title and this post, you believe that Christ no longer has a physical body of any kind. Is that correct?

But note again my reference: "For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also" (James 2:26). James was comparing two true things. If, as you suggest, the body without the spirit is not necessarily dead, then you are saying that James is making an invalid comparison, ergo, the body without the spirit can be alive.

In the previous thread, mentioned above, another very powerful reference I used was John 19:30--Jesus "released His spirit" (my translation). In other words, He died. The spirit left the body and the body of Jesus was dead.

Do you deny this truth?

Or should I, using this same lexical desperation of yours, say that because of Matt. 26:41:

"All of you must stay awake and pray that you won't be tempted. The spirit is indeed willing, but the body is weak."

we may now prove that Christ is currently weak, seeing that He has a body?

"Lexical desperation"? How supercilious of you. But I've known for a long time that you did not like Greek lexicons, and you have objected a few times to my use of the Greek--as if you believe the Greek to be useless in exegesis, even though the NT was originally written in Greek.

To answer your question, first of all, Christ deliberately limited Himself to a weak human body in the incarnation. This is basic Christology. Then in the Garden of Gethsemane, angels ministered unto Him because He was in such a weak physical condition. But He never became weak spiritually.

Now, to make Matt. 26:41 mean that Christ's resurrection body is weak, is a point that I would never make, and it is to misunderstand my point entirely. Christ now has a "spiritual body," which is what we will have in the resurrection. That does not mean a non-physical body. The word "spiritual" does not mean "non-corporeal," or the "spiritual" people in Gal. 6:1 and other passages would not have a body.

Christ's body after His resurrection was clearly physical, since Thomas was invited to touch it, and He ate food more than once. So I ask again. If Christ only came "spiritually" in AD 70, and not physically, where was His body?

 

[Yeshua1]

John of Japan asked me (and I wasn't able to see it until now):

"So when Christ came spiritually in AD 70, where was His dead body? "The body without the spirit is dead" (James 2:26)."

First of all, for those who may not know, my only times on Internet are either here in the library or at a relatives. Either is far from where I live. SO I just now saw this. ANd - par for the course - was unable to answer in the thread. That is why I started it here.

I am surprised, John, that you would even use this verse to try to prove your point. You do know the context is about how man - fallible man - can be justified. Just because Christ took on flesh does not mean that every single "body" or "flesh" verse necessarily tells us about Christ now.

Or should I, using this same lexical desperation of yours, say that because of Matt. 26:41:

"All of you must stay awake and pray that you won't be tempted. The spirit is indeed willing, but the body is weak."

we may now prove that Christ is currently weak, seeing that He has a body?

Jesus was raised up and glorified in same body died in, as he still had his scars, correct?

 

[Yeshua1]

And with this post you still have not answered my question. Let me rephrase it. Does Christ have a physical body now? If so, does He somehow detach His spirit from His body occasionally? Especially in AD 70?

If Christ no longer has a physical body, what in the world kind of body does He have? There is no such thing as a non-corporeal body. The very word "body" demands physical substance.

You not only missed my direct question on that thread, you missed an entire thread on this subject in which I presented many arguments: "Christology and Preterism."


I don't want to misrepresent you. If I get you correctly from the thread title and this post, you believe that Christ no longer has a physical body of any kind. Is that correct?

But note again my reference: "For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also" (James 2:26). James was comparing two true things. If, as you suggest, the body without the spirit is not necessarily dead, then you are saying that James is making an invalid comparison, ergo, the body without the spirit can be alive.

In the previous thread, mentioned above, another very powerful reference I used was John 19:30--Jesus "released His spirit" (my translation). In other words, He died. The spirit left the body and the body of Jesus was dead.

Do you deny this truth?


"Lexical desperation"? How supercilious of you. But I've known for a long time that you did not like Greek lexicons, and you have objected a few times to my use of the Greek--as if you believe the Greek to be useless in exegesis, even though the NT was originally written in Greek.

To answer your question, first of all, Christ deliberately limited Himself to a weak human body in the incarnation. This is basic Christology. Then in the Garden of Gethsemane, angels ministered unto Him because He was in such a weak physical condition. But He never became weak spiritually.

Now, to make Matt. 26:41 mean that Christ's resurrection body is weak, is a point that I would never make, and it is to misunderstand my point entirely. Christ now has a "spiritual body," which is what we will have in the resurrection. That does not mean a non-physical body. The word "spiritual" does not mean "non-corporeal," or the "spiritual" people in Gal. 6:1 and other passages would not have a body.

Christ's body after His resurrection was clearly physical, since Thomas was invited to touch it, and He ate food more than once. So I ask again. If Christ only came "spiritually" in AD 70, and not physically, where was His body?

Jesus had the same body raised up as he was killed off in....Same way that we all shall be !

 

[Covenanter]

John of Japan asked me (and I wasn't able to see it until now):

"So when Christ came spiritually in AD 70, where was His dead body? "The body without the spirit is dead" (James 2:26)."

Christ's body after His resurrection was clearly physical, since Thomas was invited to touch it, and He ate food more than once. So I ask again. If Christ only came "spiritually" in AD 70, and not physically, where was His body?

The question is repeatedly raised to attempt to prove that for Jesus to come in AD 70 spiritually in accord with his Olivet prophecy would violate his "hypostatic union."

I hope we would all agree that nothing can violate the perfect deity & perfect humanity in the person of the Lord Jesus Christ.

John argues that the doctrine of the second coming requires Jesus to return in his physical resurrection body therefore he did not come in AD 70.

We would respond that Jesus prophesied that he would come in the lifetime of this generation so they he did come to fulfill his prophecy. Otherwise the scoffers of 2 Peter 3 are vindicated. And remember, nothing can violate the perfect deity & perfect humanity in the person of the Lord Jesus Christ.

So what about John's "proof text" - "The body without the spirit is dead" (James 2:26)?

Is the converse true? Certainly not! The spirit lives on in glory or shame. The text says nothing about the person of the Lord Jesus Christ. It is a simple illustration from human observation, used to demonstrate the need for saving faith to be accompanied by a transformed life.

A search for "physical" found in the NIV -

Col. 1:21 Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of your evil behaviour. 22 But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation – 23 if you continue in your faith, established and firm, and do not move from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.
​

We would all agree with that passage, but does it require Jesus to have a physical body in heaven, & to come again in that physical body? Certainly Jesus in his resurrection glory combines perfect deity & perfect humanity in one divine being, but does humanity require a physical body?

My next post will discuss the implications of Habakkuk 3, Q.V.

 

[Baptist Believer]

Jesus was raised up and glorified in same body died in, as he still had his scars, correct?

and

Jesus had the same body raised up as he was killed off in....Same way that we all shall be !

The same body, yet also transformed. He is the first-fruit of the resurrection that will occur for all who are in Christ. Those who have their bodies destroyed by decay, burning, crushing, being eaten, dismembered, or have severe birth defects, will almost certainly be reformed with full health and vitality. The scars that are on the body of Jesus are for our benefit and His glory. They are a conscious choice.

Now, the resurrected body of Jesus is made of matter, but it also has properties that are unfamiliar to us. Jesus could appear and disappear in closed rooms, yet also eat and be "handled." In terms of modern physics*, Jesus could be capable of moving between dimensions, between the spiritual plane of the heavens and the more restricted plane of what we can see of our "natural" universe. In a number of ways, that could explain the various glimpses of the normally unseen world that are recorded in scripture and the ability for Jesus to be present with us, even when His physical body cannot be discerned by normal scientific means.

* I'm not necessarily claiming that moden theoretical physics has the proper explanation, but it is a way of thinking about how the material universe and the heavens are connected - and will one day be reunited - without falling into the trap of thinking of a literal three-tiered universe.​

 

[John of Japan]

The question is repeatedly raised to attempt to prove that for Jesus to come in AD 70 spiritually in accord with his Olivet prophecy would violate his "hypostatic union."

I hope we would all agree that nothing can violate the perfect deity & perfect humanity in the person of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Agreed. Thus my thread, "Christology and Preterism."

John argues that the doctrine of the second coming requires Jesus to return in his physical resurrection body therefore he did not come in AD 70.

I do believe that Scripture teaches that Christ will come physically, but that was not my point. I now have no idea how to get my point across to you. You keep misquoting, misrepresenting and misunderstanding me.

We would respond that Jesus prophesied that he would come in the lifetime of this generation so they he did come to fulfill his prophecy. Otherwise the scoffers of 2 Peter 3 are vindicated. And remember, nothing can violate the perfect deity & perfect humanity in the person of the Lord Jesus Christ.

The "this generation" issue is not directly connected to my point r.e. the physical body of Jesus.

So what about John's "proof text" - "The body without the spirit is dead" (James 2:26)?

Is the converse true? Certainly not! The spirit lives on in glory or shame. The text says nothing about the person of the Lord Jesus Christ. It is a simple illustration from human observation, used to demonstrate the need for saving faith to be accompanied by a transformed life.

Of course I believe that the human spirit can live without the body. That was not my point. You've totally missed it once again.

A search for "physical" found in the NIV -

Col. 1:21 Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of your evil behaviour. 22 But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation – 23 if you continue in your faith, established and firm, and do not move from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.
​

We would all agree with that passage, but does it require Jesus to have a physical body in heaven, & to come again in that physical body? Certainly Jesus in his resurrection glory combines perfect deity & perfect humanity in one divine being, but does humanity require a physical body?

Now we come down finally to the pressing question. Do you believe that the resurrected Jesus now has a physical body? A simple yes or no will suffice.

 

[Yeshua1]

The physical resurrection of Jesus and of the saints is required to be held to stay within bounds of Christian Orthodoxy!

 

[Yeshua1]

and


The same body, yet also transformed. He is the first-fruit of the resurrection that will occur for all who are in Christ. Those who have their bodies destroyed by decay, burning, crushing, being eaten, dismembered, or have severe birth defects, will almost certainly be reformed with full health and vitality. The scars that are on the body of Jesus are for our benefit and His glory. They are a conscious choice.

Now, the resurrected body of Jesus is made of matter, but it also has properties that are unfamiliar to us. Jesus could appear and disappear in closed rooms, yet also eat and be "handled." In terms of modern physics*, Jesus could be capable of moving between dimensions, between the spiritual plane of the heavens and the more restricted plane of what we can see of our "natural" universe. In a number of ways, that could explain the various glimpses of the normally unseen world that are recorded in scripture and the ability for Jesus to be present with us, even when His physical body cannot be discerned by normal scientific means.

* I'm not necessarily claiming that moden theoretical physics has the proper explanation, but it is a way of thinking about how the material universe and the heavens are connected - and will one day be reunited - without falling into the trap of thinking of a literal three-tiered universe.​

I look at Jesus as being multiply[le/infinite dimensions at same "time", as he can just interact back and forth at will when he so chose to, to be with us in 3 dimensions, and then outside those when wanted to be!

 

[Baptist Believer]

I look at Jesus as being multiply[le/infinite dimensions at same "time", as he can just interact back and forth at will when he so chose to, to be with us in 3 dimensions, and then outside those when wanted to be!

That's kind of how I understand it as well, but we have not been given information as to how all of that works. I makes sense to me and I sometimes use that idea as an illustration when talking to atheists who mock the idea of a physical body in some kind of orbit around the planet (as they would put it).

 

[agedman]

What Scriptures do the Preterist use to signify that the Lord Jesus Christ does separate from his glorified body to flit through the universe from time to time?

NONE!!!!

It is a simple supposition in which they must construct to satisfy the preconceived notion that "generation" had to not extend beyond a certain calendar date.

Doing so, not only invalidates prophecy of both the OT and NT (as has been adequately demonstrated on other threads) but removes any hope from the literal physical return and reign of the Savior by believers.

So, what now?

Because this current existence (in the thinking of the Preterest) must be heaven, it seems like an awfully ugly place considering the splendors of BOTH the millennial reign and the new heaven and earth as spoken by the prophets.

Thing is, the prophets are basically silent about this period of time. Not until towards the end of this age do the prophetic statements begin to reoccur.

But according to the Preterest view, ALL prophecy is done, no need to think any more, no need to hope any more, no need to abide in Him anymore.

Why would anyone even suggest that the Preterest view is even close to Scriptural?

 

[tyndale1946]

I have a question John the Revelator was very familiar with the Jewish sacrificial system, more specifically the priest sacrificing a lamb... Then what body did John see, when he saw a Lamb as it had been and was slain?... Brother Glen

Revelation 5:6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

5:7 And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.

5:8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

5:11 And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;

5:12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

 

[agedman]

I have a question John the Revelator was very familiar with the Jewish sacrificial system, more specifically the priest sacrificing a lamb... Then what body did John see, when he saw a Lamb as it had been and was slain?... Brother Glen

Revelation 5:6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

5:7 And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.

5:8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

5:11 And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;

5:12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

This is a picture of the revealing of the crucified Christ to heaven. From Heaven's perspective. An absolutely awesome picturing of the authority of Christ over all of heaven and earth.

 

[David Kent]

What Scriptures do the Preterist use to signify that the Lord Jesus Christ does separate from his glorified body to flit through the universe from time to time?

NONE!!!!

It is a simple supposition in which they must construct to satisfy the preconceived notion that "generation" had to not extend beyond a certain calendar date.

Doing so, not only invalidates prophecy of both the OT and NT (as has been adequately demonstrated on other threads) but removes any hope from the literal physical return and reign of the Savior by believers.

So, what now?

Because this current existence (in the thinking of the Preterest) must be heaven, it seems like an awfully ugly place considering the splendors of BOTH the millennial reign and the new heaven and earth as spoken by the prophets.

Thing is, the prophets are basically silent about this period of time. Not until towards the end of this age do the prophetic statements begin to reoccur.

But according to the Preterest view, ALL prophecy is done, no need to think any more, no need to hope any more, no need to abide in Him anymore.

Why would anyone even suggest that the Preterest view is even close to Scriptural?

I am not a preterist but I will give an answer,

• Matthew 18:20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

Is he with us in body, or spirit?

 

[agedman]

I am not a preterist but I will give an answer,

• Matthew 18:20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

Is he with us in body, or spirit?

"Lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." Is he with us in body, or spirit?

The answer to these verses is what the Lord Jesus Christ said in John 16:

7“But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you.
​

Because that helper is the Holy Spirit, which is also God, then the statements such as given are truthful.

But, that does not apply to the preterstic thinking of some spiritual return of Christ in that generation.