No, not as you count the debt (a sins debt). Scripture teaches that the wages of sin is death. Christ suffered the consequences of sin and ransomed us from sin and death.
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Theory of atonement, do you have one?
- Thread starter agedman
- Start date
I like the word redeemed.
Not in the sense of one paying a debt, rather as one might hold a pardon is redeemed.
Or one might redeem an item by using a coupon.
It is understood that some consider “the sin debt” when really it is not debt but wages sin pays.
Christ’s blood didn’t as much “pay the debt I owed” but secured pardon by redemption.
Just as that little innocent lamb could not pay, and only temporarily redeem, so Christ did not pay, but secured full pardon for the redeemed.
Again, “there is therefore no condemnation...” but for unbelief such are “condemned already.’
I have supplied several, but you just want to understanding thwe atonement in a way that eliminates the wrath of God towards all sins that Jesus bore as the sin bearer!
There is a Cup of wrath, and God wrath was to be poured out onto the lost world in revelation, and who can endure his wrath id a common theme, correct?
The soul that sins shall die, and there is a sin dent owed to God for all sins, correct?
What debt is owed when "The WAGES of sin is death?"
That is the due penalty for commuting sin, but the sin debt is to God alone.
Perhaps you can show were sin is aligned as a dept to God (or to Satan) that had to be repaid in the Scriptures. I've been wrong before, which is why it is imperative that Scriptures is shown.
Just saying it is so, is not showing by Scriptures that sin accrues a debt, in comparison to what I have shown that sin pays wages called death.
This is the core difference (imo) of the ransom thinking versus the redeem thinking.
The believer owed the debt of love which God first gave to all sinners, but I am having a problem finding sin creating a debt that has to be paid in comparison to a state of being lost and then redeemed.
Do you see the wrath of God in the scriptures towards sins/sinners?
You are not avoiding the questions of whether Scriptures actually do state that one owes a debt as the result of sin.
I do wish you could find at least one, that way I would gladly work at modification of my thinking.
To answer your question about wrath, certainly, such is displayed in Scriptures.
But what action did God actually directly take? Did He not use both natural environment (famine, pestilence...) and humans (conquest, brutalize ...) that both occur when His hand of protection is removed?
Did God actually ever personally reach out and do damage?
Or, did He allow sin to take the rebuke that all sin and sinfulness carries by its nature? (example: sow and reap - sow discord and destruction reap the same)
Remember, there is only one place that the Scriptures record direct physical action by God against the ungodly, that is at His Second Coming. By His own sword and presence the destruction of all evil is total.
God doesn't Himself even bind Satan but delegates that to another being. What a rebuke to Satan, who once may have been given charge over that very angel who would be given the authority to bind him.
During the millennial reign, the people who are careless or obstinate bring upon themselves punishment already described and planned. Again, God doesn't have to bring it, it is already available as the result of humanity's own unfaithfulness.
You have not provided even one. You give a verse and then assert the author implies this to mean God was wrathful towards Christ because your tradition says so.
I truly believe you see those "invisible words" because you are so blinded by your tradition. Prove me wrong- no commentary but highlight in bold the words in Scripture that say God poured His wrath on Jesus.
God poured out His wrath towards all sins upon the One who bore those sins in our stead!
Scripture?
Please, I am not wanting to contend over what one thinks happened, I truly need to actually have a Scripture statement that states, "God poured out His wrath towards all sins upon the One who bore those sins in our stead!"
There are many who view the cross in the concept of God's rejection, God's wrath, God's punishment, ... However, is there actual Scriptures that support that thinking?
Jesus IS God. Scripture tells us that the Father does not judge but has given all judgment to the Son.
The obvious question is why be angry and have wrath?
He has prepared their condemnation, already.
He as the final just judge merely is allowing the unbelievers to review their life ("...the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds." Revelation 20), and then as they stand "condemned already (John 3) are "thrown into the lake of fire." Revelations 20.
I don't see "the wrath of God" as some humans would describe as that angry fit throwing judge, but one fixed, in controlled passionate feelings against sin (as Strong's would indicate) or a indignation that is steadfastly opposed by one rising in opposition to evil.
It is important God's attitude toward His direct and expressed enemy (Satan) when Satan actually appears before God in the book of Job. There was no overt "wrath" as humankind my assign, but God, in control and,with passionate feelings against sin, steadfastly opposed that evil one. How? By out maneuvering and out thinking. Knowing the beginning, the end, and all in between.
So you keep saying.
No disrespect intended, but since you cannot provide even one verse stating God was wrathful to Jesus, and since there are numerous passages stating the contrary (that condemning the righteous is an abomination to God; God will not abandon His Righteous One; the Father is pleased with the Son, etc.), why should we even consider adopting your tradition? At best it is unbiblical...at worst, anti-biblical.
I( would say that both Calvin and Luthor would agree with my viewpoint far more than yours, as yours seems to be more in line with that of NT Wright!