To argue the amount of blood available is pointless, the point is that the Atonement is ONLY for the few predestined elect.
-
Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
More reasons Why The penal Substitution Atonement Model is best One!
- Thread starter Yeshua1
- Start date
To argue the amount of blood available is pointless, the point is that the Atonement is ONLY for the few predestined elect.
It says "for while we" it doesn't say all of humanity, the "we" is the predestined elect, which is supported by many orher scriptures.
There are plenty.
THE ELECTION AND PREDESTINATION
OF THE BELIEVER
John 1:12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name:
1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
Romans 10:13 For "whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved."
Isaiah 64:7 And there is no one who calls on Your name, Who stirs himself up to take hold of You...
Isaiah 55:6 Seek the LORD while He may be found, Call upon Him while He is near.
Romans 3:11 There is none who understands; There is none who seeks after God.
Joshua 24:15 "...choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve..."
John 15:16 "You did not choose Me, but I chose you...
John 6:37 "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.
John 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.
If it is true that there are none that seek after God, call upon His name, choose Him, or receive Him, then how did we believe? John 6:63 "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing.
I. How did we believe?
A. His power
1. Ephesians 1:15-19 Therefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, 16 do not cease to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers: 17 that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him, 18 the eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that you may know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints, 19 and what is the exceeding greatness of His power toward us who believe, according to the working of His mighty power
2. 2 Corinthians 3:3-5 Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshly tables of the heart. 4 And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward: 5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;
3. Acts 3:16 And his name through faith in his name hath made this man strong, whom ye see and know: yea, the faith which is by him hath given him this perfect soundness in the presence of you all.
4. John 6:63-65 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. 64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him. 65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
5. Isaiah 26:12-13 LORD, thou wilt ordain peace for us: for thou also hast wrought all our works in us. 13 O LORD our God, other lords beside thee have had dominion over us: but by thee only will we make mention of thy name.
a. Christ prays only for them.
5. John 17:11-12 "Now I am no longer in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep through Your name those whom You have given Me, that they may be one as We are. 12 "While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.
6. John 17:24 "Father, I desire that they also whom You gave Me may be with Me where I am, that they may behold My glory which You have given Me; for You loved Me before the foundation of the world.
C. The chosen
1. John 15:16 "You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you.
2. Psalms 65:4 Blessed is the man You choose, And cause to approach You, That he may dwell in Your courts. We shall be satisfied with the goodness of Your house, Of Your holy temple.
3. Numbers 16:1-13
4. Matthew 22:1-14
5. 1 Peter 2:9 But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;
D. As many as were ordained
1. Acts 13:48 Now when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord. And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.
2. Acts 2:47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.
E. Whom the Lord wills
1. John 1:12-13 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
2. John 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws (gk.-helko-to drag) him; and I will raise him up at the last day.
3. John 5:21 "For as the Father raises the dead and gives life to them, even so the Son gives life to whom He will.
IV. Why did He choose us? -- Acts 15:18 "Known to God from eternity are all His works."
1. Ephesians 1:5,9,11 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 9 having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, 11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will,
2. Matthew 11:21-27 "Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the mighty works which were done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. 22 "But I say to you, it will be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon in the day of judgment than for you. 23 "And you, Capernaum, who are exalted to heaven, will be brought down to Hades; for if the mighty works which were done in you had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day. 24 "But I say to you that it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment than for you." 25 At that time Jesus answered and said, "I thank You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and prudent and have revealed them to babes. 26 "Even so, Father, for so it seemed good in Your sight. 27 "All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father. Nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.
D. To the praise of His glory and grace
1. Ephesians 1:4-6,11-14 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He has made us accepted in the Beloved. 11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, 12 that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory. 13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.
Those who, by means of regeneration, have been given the faith to believe, repent, and obey.
Seen this sort for decades.
Not a single Scripture that states Christ shed His blood for only the elect.
Yet, I can and gave pointed to three that clearly and decisively state the blood was shed for ALL.
End of discussion, unless you can find a more convincing Scripture that actually proves the limit of blood was so poor as to be unworthy for all.
Oh my!!!
I took you to understand Romans 9 to be what Paul established as the limit of who would or would not be redeemed.
That it was not the limit of the supply of blood.
Yep.
This is where some will start interpreting Scripture through the lens of their own theology rather than allowing Scripture to form their belief.
They typically look back and say “huh…it does say that but it can’t mean that because I’ll have to tweak my understanding. So…the “whole world” must mean “all the elect throughout time in the whole world” even though every time John uses the “world” in this epistle he means it literally to speak of sinful humanity.”
Christ died for mankind to save those who would believe.
https://www.tms.edu//nas/content/live/tmsbones/m/tmsj20i.pdf
Brother,
You asked me what I thought of your articles. There were four and I try to take my time reading, re-reading, taking notes, and looking at each claim critically (something I learned from John Piper years ago). Here is my observations and conclusions about the first article by Michael Vlach.
Vlach makes the claim that PSA has “an impeccable pedigree in the history of the Christian church” and states that if a writer makes an explicit reference to PSA then it indicates PSA is widely understood and uncontroversial. As evidence that this has occurred in the writings of the ECF’s he offers several quotes. I contend that none of these quotes are exclusive to PSA. Here is what is offered along side my notes:
Clement of Rome: “Because of the love he felt for us, Jesus Christ our Lord gave his blood for us by the will of God, his body for our bodies, and his soul for our soul”.
But this is not PSA. In fact, this quote would fall squarely into any orthodox theory of Atonement. Origen, for example, believed that Christ died by the will of God and gave his body and soul for our bodies and souls. Does this mean that Origen’s Ransom theory is also PSA? No, of course not.
Ignatius: “Now, He suffered all things for our sakes, that we might be saved”.
Again, this is certainly not unique to PSA. The Christus Victor motif (and the theories it contains) also holds this to be true. EVEN contemporary Mennonite “Non-Violent Atonement” advocates hold this to be true.
Epistle of Barnabas: “For this end the Lord endured to deliver up His flesh to corruption, that we might be sanctified through the remission of sins, which is effected by His blood of sprinkling. For it is written concerning Him, partly with reference to Israel, and partly to us; and [the Scripture] saith thus: ‘He was wounded for our transgressions, and bruised for our iniquities: with His stripes we are healed. He was brought as a sheep to the slaughter, and as a lamb which is dumb before its shearer.”
The evidence provided here is that the Epistle of Barnabas quotes a passage of Scripture that all orthodox theories confirm – to include the Ransom theory, Governmental theory, Substitution theory, and PSA.
Justin Martyr: “If then, the Father of all wished His Christ for the whole human family to take upon Him the curses of all, knowing that, after He had been crucified and was dead, He would raise Him up, why do you argue about Him, who submitted to suffer these things according to the Father’s will, as if He were accursed, and do not rather bewail yourselves? For although His Father caused Him to suffer these things in behalf of the human family, yet you did not commit the deed as in obedience to the will of God.”
Again Martyrs quote could fall into several theories. All believe that it was God who caused Christ to suffer and that Christ took upon Himself the curses of all. Scripture states that Christ was obedient to God even to death on the cross. The one theory this CANNOT fall into, however, is PSA. Unlike PSA Martyr views Christ as suffering for “the whole human family to take upon Him the curses of all” and that the “Father caused Him to suffer these things in behalf of the human family”. PSA holds that Christ was punished with the punishment of those sin of those who will believe (the elect) – not for the sins of all humanity.
Conclusion:
This article is poor scholarship and is essentially propaganda. I do not believe a seminary professor would accept this article had it been a critical assignment as the evidence does not support the conclusions. None of the quotes (to include those I did not include in this post but linked in the article) are exclusive to PSA and some, in fact, are contrary to the theory.
This does not mean PSA is wrong, but it does make one wonder why the grasping at history.
God was in an active sense pouring out upon Jesus the wrath that was stored up by Him to come against all sins, and all sinners who would be still lost in there sins .
The main reason that you that you seem to be against it is that you do not see the Father pouring His wrath out towards sins upon jesus, and treating Him as If he was a sinner Himself, correct?
I think the main question on this would be just to whom did God plan to have the death of Christ atone for and to save?
First of all, Penal Substitution has been held by many people, including John and Charles Wesley, who believed (wrongly) in a general redemption.
Secondly Agedman's post belongs on the Cal/Arm forum, but I feel I ought to answer it.
So does one become a sheep by believing? "But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you" (John 10:26). One does not become a sheep by believing; one believes because one is a sheep.
"All that the Father gives Me will come to Me......." The Father gave to the Son a people to redeem, and not one will be lost.
".......And the one who comes to Me I will in no wise cast out" (John 6:37). No one will ever be told that the grace has run out or that the sufferings of Christ were somehow not sufficient to save them. How does that work? "My sheep hear My voice and I know them and they follow Me" (John 10:27). That brings us back to the beginning. "The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep." Not for the goats.
Secondly Agedman's post belongs on the Cal/Arm forum, but I feel I ought to answer it.
"I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep" (John 10:11). Does the Good Shepherd give His life for the goats? That's not what the text says.
So does one become a sheep by believing? "But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you" (John 10:26). One does not become a sheep by believing; one believes because one is a sheep.
The Lord Jesus shed His blood for Jews and Greeks alike, rich and poor alike, men and women alike, but He dd not shed His blood for every single person who ever lived because not every person who ever lived is saved.
With respect, you are the one who believes that the blood of Christ was such poor quality that it could not save millions of people for whom it was shed.
"All that the Father gives Me will come to Me......." The Father gave to the Son a people to redeem, and not one will be lost.
".......And the one who comes to Me I will in no wise cast out" (John 6:37). No one will ever be told that the grace has run out or that the sufferings of Christ were somehow not sufficient to save them. How does that work? "My sheep hear My voice and I know them and they follow Me" (John 10:27). That brings us back to the beginning. "The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep." Not for the goats.
Last edited:
No, you misunderstand. I do not form my view based on the theories of the ECF's or the Reformers. No matter their influence my views are based on Scripture and how I understand Scripture.
What I am against is dishonesty. The author of that article did not take the writings for what they were but instead sought to validate his own theory through their works. He took quotes and provided his own context. For example, he chose to take Justin Martyr's comments from "Dialogue with Trypho" as a defense or evidence of PSA. Within those statements Martyr views Christ's work as for the "whole human family", or for "humanity". Even if the author were not lifting the quote and placing them within his own context, the application of the cross is contrary to PSA.
I am against dishonesty and the rewriting of history, period. We object to this when it is done through the Catholic church, and I see no reason not to object to it now.
Again, the thinking of retribution for infractions demands justified payment (the typical thinking of lawyers) leaves some obvious questions.
If Christ taking on the sins of all humankind, and in doing so had the wrath of God poured out on Him, then in turn who took the sins for Christ that Christ be able to stand before God and take the scrolls?
The thoughts of many who hold PS theoryis that the justification payment demanded a time in hell. However, there is the matter of Christ’s own statement that one in such a place cannot travel to another (Lazarus and the wealthy man).
This is just one of the multiple areas that present conflicting conditions to statements of Scriptures.
HOWEVER, what if it was not the Wrath of God poured out on the Cross?
For, I cannot find a single verse or passage that contains wrath associated with the cross in relationship to the Father taking action against the Son.
Now, I may certainly be wrong, and if such exists it would be wonderful for it to be posted.
What I do see is the overriding love God had for His creation obliged that He took His protection off His only natural born Son allowing Him to endure the Cross that the Blood be sprinkled on the seat of atonement for all.
The results then is that reconciliation is a matter of belief, not of blood. That redemption is a matter of the Father’s choosing and not of blood. That grievous sins confessed by the believer can be forgiven and cleansed, not by the blood.
Oh, that the reformed and reformers had not taken the thinking of the Papist on this matter.
“There is therefore no condemnation” means no more penitence, no more a payment due for sin(s), no more a rejection by the Father.
This is amazing.
Not a single Scripture is stated that the blood was limited to the elect!
What a powerful hold that thinking has, but unless one can find Scriptures to support it, it remains pure fiction.
For the Scriptures DO state the blood was for ALL humankind.
I see another problem with those who limit the blood supply. It is the thinking that SALVATION is guaranteed by the blood. Not according to Scriptures.
The single key to Salvation is belief.
Belief is based upon both the finished work of Christ AND the gift of God’s faith granted to the believer.
The Scriptures do not present the blood as limited only to the elect, nor is the blood presented as the “only” in this matter of Salvation.
There is NO salvation outside of the blood, but the blood does not guarantee salvation to every person. It was the atonement sacrifice for all, not the salvation of all.
I don’t want to be laborious in this, but the OT antonement sacrifice was for all in the land, but it didn’t guarantee salvation for all in the land.
All saved in the OT were saved just as all of all ages, by belief.
I was just asking you if that was your main problem with PST, as you do not see it as being fair to have Jesus suffer in our stead for what he did not deserve toi have happen?
Jesus at the end of the time while on the Cross could say that it was accomplished/finished, and at that time, He was once again fully restored to the father once again, as he had completed the task of paying for the sin debt of lost sinners.
Without the shedding of blood, there is no forgiveness for sin, and the messiah HAD to die on the Cross, and Have His blood shed for remission of sins. IF Jesus died of a heart attack, or died while being whipped, we would all be still lost!
And what is a sin debt?
Doesn’t the Scriptures present sin as one that has ownership, as an owner would be obligated to pay wages to an employee?
What was the wages payed to Christ taking upon himself the sin of all creation? Death.
How did that death come about? The Shedding of blood
Therefore, “without the shedding of blood there is no remission (forgiveness) of sin.”