World or elect

[agedman]

1 John 2:2 says Christ is the propitiation or means of salvation for the whole world, and does not say Christ propitiated the sins of the elect or of the whole world. Thus John 1:29 does not say Christ took away (past tense) the sins of the world, but takes away the sin of the world, one sinner of the world at a time when he or her is transferred into Christ.

You need to get the two very different views in your understanding before objecting to either one of them. All scripture supports the view Christ laid down His life as a ransom for all, but only those transferred into Christ are reconciled. That is why we have the ministry of reconciliation.

Just a small correction, perhaps.

John’s use of propitiation is not a “means” to salvation, rather John is stating that the actual blood is the propitiation.

There is a difference in the consideration if one uses “means of” rather than “is.”

Of course, the scholars would point out that a more literal translation of 1 John 2:2 is “He propitiated sin, ours, and all humanity.”

Which is directly contrary to the typical view of some on the B.B.

 

[agedman]

I do not believe 'world' ever means a select few. My post was to indicate that it has a range of meanings and certainly does not always mean 'all the people in the world.'

Then you must show that meaning is to be found in the Scriptures.

In particular, that the meaning is found that pertains to the ELECT.

In the 36 uses posted on this thread, not a single time is such meaning to be found, and when it pertains to the humanity, it DOES mean ALL humanity.

That such rubs contrary to a certain scheme does not invalidate the whole scheme, but obliges a modification to bring that scheme into agreement with the Scriptures.

When our Lord's brothers said to HIm, "If You do these things, show yourself to the world" (John 7:4), they were not supposing that He would make a round-the-world tour, merely that He should go to the Feast of Tabernacles where He would meet His disciples who lived down there (v.3) and also presumably priests, scribes, Pharisees, Herodians as well as ordinary Jews, i.e. more people than He was seeing in Galilee, but clearly limited to Jews.

1) But those who attended the Feast of Tabernacles were not generally considered believers, the elect, the redeemed....

So, even in that use, the world "world" cannot be assigned to be "only believers."

2) It is the view of some, that the blood is limited to a select of the "world," yet the ONLY Scripture in which the word "world" is used in relation to the blood declares just the opposite.

Perhaps it would help if folks took the time to investigate the most literal translation of 1 John 2:2 and see that there is can be no limit to the blood as applied to all humanity.

 

[TCassidy]

Of course, the scholars would point out that a more literal translation of 1 John 2:2 is “He propitiated sin, ours, and all humanity.”

Scholars? Not the good ones who understand what κοσμος means.

 

[agedman]

Scholars? Not the good ones who understand what κοσμος means.

True. And I have long ago slipped from the realms of scholar.

Taking the meaning of κοσμος to be the elect, so far has not been found in the Scriptures.

I was hoping that someone could find at least one verse!

However, there are verses in which κοσμος would be in contrast to the elect.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Of course, the scholars would point out that a more literal translation of 1 John 2:2 is “He propitiated sin, ours, and all humanity.”

That is extremely interesting. Would you like to tell us which scholars think that is a 'more literal' translation, and which word they think 'literally' means humanity?

 

[agedman]

That is extremely interesting. Would you like to tell us which scholars think that is a 'more literal' translation, and which word they think 'literally' means humanity?

Martin, did you not know that κοσμος means: universe, all humanity, world, earth, circle of the earth, all humanity of the earth, world affairs ...

But, at NO time has there been a Scripture found to support that the context indicates "world" to be taken as the elect.

Which is the point of this thread.

For some to claim that Christ's blood is ONLY for the elect is not supported by the Scripture statements of his blood being for the world. (1 John 2:2).

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Martin, did you not know that κοσμος means: universe, all humanity, world, earth, circle of the earth, all humanity of the earth, world affairs ...

But, at NO time has there been a Scripture found to support that the context indicates "world" to be taken as the elect.

Which is the point of this thread.

For some to claim that Christ's blood is ONLY for the elect is not supported by the Scripture statements of his blood being for the world. (1 John 2:2).

I have never suggested that kosmos means 'elect' and I don't know anybody who does.
But actually, you don't want kosmos to mean 'world,' do you. You want it to mean 'all the people in the world' and whilst it can mean that, it quite rarely does.
Koine Greek has a much smaller vocabulary than modern English, and you will find that most Greek words have two, three or even four possible meanings. The way to find the right one is usually by the context.
In 1 John 2:2, the Lord Jesus cannot be the propitiation for all the people in the world, simply because God is not propitiated in respect of all the people in the world. 'He who does not believe is condemned already......' (John 3:18).
My own view is that in 1 John 2:2, kosmos really does mean 'world.' I'm going out in a few minutes, but when I come back I'll explain why I think that.

 

[TCassidy]

But, at NO time has there been a Scripture found to support that the context indicates "world" to be taken as the elect.

If you believe, as I do, that the elect are all believers, and all believers are the elect then these verses refer to elect believers only.

John 1:29 The next day, he saw Jesus coming to him, and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

John 3:17 For God didn’t send his Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world should be saved through him.

John 6:33 For the bread of God is that which comes down out of heaven, and gives life to the world.

John 12:47 If anyone listens to my sayings, and doesn’t believe, I don’t judge him. For I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

1 Corinthians 4:9 For, I think that God has displayed us, the apostles, last of all, like men sentenced to death. For we are made a spectacle to the world, both to angels and men.

2 Corinthians 5:19 namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to himself, not reckoning to them their trespasses, and having committed to us the word of reconciliation.

 

[agedman]

I have never suggested that kosmos means 'elect' and I don't know anybody who does.
But actually, you don't want kosmos to mean 'world,' do you. You want it to mean 'all the people in the world' and whilst it can mean that, it quite rarely does.
Koine Greek has a much smaller vocabulary than modern English, and you will find that most Greek words have two, three or even four possible meanings. The way to find the right one is usually by the context.
In 1 John 2:2, the Lord Jesus cannot be the propitiation for all the people in the world, simply because God is not propitiated in respect of all the people in the world. 'He who does not believe is condemned already......' (John 3:18).
My own view is that in 1 John 2:2, kosmos really does mean 'world.' I'm going out in a few minutes, but when I come back I'll explain why I think that.

Condemnation is not tied to blood, but to belief.

Sin can be resolved by blood, but that does not warrant salvation.

Salvation is the gift of God.

 

[agedman]

If you believe, as I do, that the elect are all believers, and all believers are the elect then these verses refer to elect believers only.

John 1:29 The next day, he saw Jesus coming to him, and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

John 3:17 For God didn’t send his Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world should be saved through him.

John 6:33 For the bread of God is that which comes down out of heaven, and gives life to the world.

John 12:47 If anyone listens to my sayings, and doesn’t believe, I don’t judge him. For I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

1 Corinthians 4:9 For, I think that God has displayed us, the apostles, last of all, like men sentenced to death. For we are made a spectacle to the world, both to angels and men.

2 Corinthians 5:19 namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to himself, not reckoning to them their trespasses, and having committed to us the word of reconciliation.

“...takes away the sin of the world” does not conform to being restricted to the elect, anymore than “God so loved the world” can be restricted.

That carries through in every verse you offered as support.

To narrow the word “world” to a subset of the whole is in violation of “not us only but the whole world”. 1 John 2:2

Now you used 5 verses from John, do you not consider this man whole stood before the Cross, with the mother of Christ, would not have greatly desired the justice upon the savages by restricting the word “world” to be just the elect?

But consistency demands, 1 John 2:2 be taken as all others - as inclusive not exclusive.

Then you use Paul, who also uses “world” as a point of contrast to believers, but never as the “elect.” For example, the both verses you used from 2 Corinthians.

 

[TCassidy]

But consistency demands, 1 John 2:2 be taken as all others - as inclusive not exclusive.

John tells us exactly what he means by "world" by using other similar words.

Revelation 5:9 Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation.

 

[agedman]

John tells us exactly what he means by "world" by using other similar words.

Revelation 5:9 Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation.

Disappointing!

Revelation 5:9 is no way the use of the word “world” as John, Paul, or any other NT writer uses it.

Believers taken from all parts and cultures of the ungodly world is not the same as assigning the elect as being the world.

 

[Yeshua1]

Condemnation is not tied to blood, but to belief.

Sin can be resolved by blood, but that does not warrant salvation.

Salvation is the gift of God.

We are already condemned as judged to be found in Adam when born, as we are sinners by both birth and choice!

 

[agedman]

We are already condemned as judged to be found in Adam when born, as we are sinners by both birth and choice!

And so, out of the world of sinners Christ shed His blood, there is the elect. The elect are not of the world, but taken from among the world that Christ propitiated.

1 John 2:2.

“...Jesus Christ the righteous; 2and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.”.​

 

[Van]

Just a small correction, perhaps.
John’s use of propitiation is not a “means” to salvation, rather John is stating that the actual blood is the propitiation.
There is a difference in the consideration if one uses “means of” rather than “is.”
Of course, the scholars would point out that a more literal translation of 1 John 2:2 is “He propitiated sin, ours, and all humanity.”
Which is directly contrary to the typical view of some on the B.B.

More misrepresentation and absurdity. Did anyone say "means to salvation?" Nope. One falsehood after another.
Is John says Christ's blood is the propitiation? Nope, Christ is the propitiation or means of salvation for the sins of the whole world.
The word is propitiation not propitiated. More misrepresentation and absurdity.
When is God's wrath turn aside from us? When we enter Christ's propitiatory shelter and undergo the circumcision of Christ where our sin burden (what God holds against us) is removed.

 

[Van]

You sure?

John 1:29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold! The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!​

The Bible says not all are saved, but it also says Christ took away the sins of the world. I realize this throws a monkey wrench in all kinds of theological systems.
It also takes me back to ancient Israel when Moses covered all the Israelites with blood. But later they turned out to be a generation of unbelievers. Not easy to understand, but that's what Scripture says.

Let us address being sure of an understanding of scripture. I am sure the view I presented is consistent with all scripture, and thus far more likely to be nearer the truth, than the views that conflict with scripture after scripture.

Does the bible say Christ "took away the sins of the world?" Nope. It says Christ "takes away" the sin of the world." How does He do this? When a sinner is transferred into Christ, and his or her specific sin burden is removed, the sin of the world, not all of it, but part of it is removed. Thus Christ is taking away the sin of the world, one sinner at a time.

 

[Van]

The only alternative to that is that He did NOT pay for the sins of the elect.
Please do not call the doctrine of the Atonement "bogus."

I presented the biblical doctrine of atonement. Please stop misrepresenting my position.

Paying the ransom for the whole world of mankind does not save anyone, or remove the specific sins of anyone. But it does mean anyone of the world, when transferred into Christ, has his or her specific sin burden (what God holds against him or her) removed.

That is a pretty tortured theory. Either Christ's sacrifice atones for a person's sin or it doesn't. You can't have it not atoning then suddenly atoning.

Again more nonsense, when a person is transferred into Christ, their sin burden is removed by the circumcision of Christ. You can claim the bible does not mean what it says, but scripture is clear.

Colossians 2:11, "and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ;​

 

[agedman]

More misrepresentation and absurdity. Did anyone say "means to salvation?" Nope. One falsehood after another.
Is John says Christ's blood is the propitiation? Nope, Christ is the propitiation or means of salvation for the sins of the whole world.
The word is propitiation not propitiated. More misrepresentation and absurdity.
When is God's wrath turn aside from us? When we enter Christ's propitiatory shelter and undergo the circumcision of Christ where our sin burden (what God holds against us) is removed.

Van you posted:

1 John 2:2 says Christ is the propitiation or means of salvation for the whole world, and does not say Christ propitiated the sins of the elect or of the whole world. Thus John 1:29 does not say Christ took away (past tense) the sins of the world, but takes away the sin of the world, one sinner of the world at a time when he or her is transferred into Christ.

You need to get the two very different views in your understanding before objecting to either one of them. All scripture supports the view Christ laid down His life as a ransom for all, but only those transferred into Christ are reconciled. That is why we have the ministry of reconciliation.

Then you attempted to explore how Christ does this one sinner at a time.

I ignored this, because I figured that a small correction would bring you enough light to self correct your thinking.

But such kindness was only met with “more misrepresentation and absurdity.”

So, lest you be misinformed, let us agree on the following points:

1) Christ died once, for all sinners of all time, not multiple times as “for each sinner” would indicate.

2) John does state Christ is the propitiation, and John is specifically indicating the blood and not the furniture as Paul uses the word. Two different concepts.

3) You present a conflict when you state “one sinner at a time” as if Christ has some great bucket in which to dip the hyssop branch, and then embrace “Christ died for all.”

 

[agedman]

I presented the biblical doctrine of atonement. Please stop misrepresenting my position.

Perception that you, alone, would present as correct, may or may not be correct.

It is not “misrepresenting” to show the frailty of a view.

Again more nonsense, when a person is transferred into Christ, their sin burden is removed by the circumcision of Christ. You can claim the bible does not mean what it says, but scripture is clear.

Colossians 2:11, "and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ;​

1) Would you please post a verse that states “a person is transferred into Christ?” I can’t seem to locate that Scripture.

2) Would you please post just how circumcision brought about removal of the “sin burden?”

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Condemnation is not tied to blood, but to belief.

Sin can be resolved by blood, but that does not warrant salvation.

Salvation is the gift of God.

Not quite sure what you mean here. 1 John 2:2 does not mention blood, but propitiation. A propitiation is a sacrifice that turns away wrath. God is propitiated by the atonement offered by the Lord Jesus Christ, but He is not propitiated in respect of the sins of unbelievers (John 3:18 etc.). Therefore our Lord did not offer propitiation in respect of all men QED.

So what does kosmos mean in 1 John 2:2? I believe it refers to the physical world.

In Genesis 3:17, God says to Adam, "Cursed is the ground [ Heb. Adamah: 'earth,' 'land'] for your sake." There is a curse on the physical world in which we live (c.f. Genesis 5:29). Paul picks up on this in Romans 8:18-23. 'For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope.' It is God's righteous judgement that sinful men are not going to live in a perfect world; it is subject to random events ('futility') like floods, hurricanes, earthquakes, epidemics etc., but there is hope!

If one goes into a maternity ward in a hospital, one hears terrible cries of pain and sees nurses and doctors running to and fro, and one might think that someone is dying, but no! Someone's coming to birth. So it is in the world. 'The whole creation groans and labours with birth pangs until now.' There is a new creation coming to birth! For Christ has redeemed the world on the cross, and so, 'even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly awaiting for the adoption, the redemption of our bodies.' For when the Lord Jesus returns, we shall rise to meet Him with new resurrection bodies ( 1 Thessalonians 4:17; 1 Corinthians 15:52), and not only shall we be changed, but this old tired earth shall be changed also (Revelation 21:1) and the curse will be removed forever (Revelation 22:3).

How can this be done? How can God be just and remove His curse upon the world? Jesus Christ is the propitiation, not only for our sins, but for the whole world.