Still no facts supporting preterism!

I'm not going to defend my previous post for the sake of that, but looking at Matthew 24, it says they came out of the temple and the talk was about the temple buildings and "all these things," which is when Jesus said, "“Do you not see all these things? Truly I say to you, not one stone here will be left upon another, which will not be torn down.”

Perhaps unfortunately, it seems to be a passage which means only the temple-- if you want it to mean that-- or to all stones set up if you want it to mean that.

 

Amen brother, that also, in fact there are probably more disagreements among dispensationalists than just about any other camp including Calvinists (which admittedly is a close second) .

HankD

 

Actually, I believe there are 3 comings of Christ. The 2nd one occurred near 70AD in the clouds above Jerusalem which ended the Mosaic marriage covenant the Lord had with Israel.

I agree there are many flavors of Preterism and my views are different than most. I didn't mean to split hairs but I do believe there will be a final coming of Christ which will culminate in the final judgement of all evil in our future. I've been called a hyper-preterist before and I really have no problem with that.

Here is a web page which describes my position in more detail: https://www.preteristarchive.com/lloyd-dale-a-different-preterist-perspective-2002/

Btw, I am not Lloyd Dale the author of the commentary.

 

When it comes to labels brother considering your explanation I believe you could even be considered a futurist amillennialist.

HankD

 

Wow Hank, you're panning out to be a real expert on eschatology! I could even be considered a futurist amillennialist! Or maybe a historipreteridealipostmil!

 

Yah! it happens when you've been on the BB for 16 years

HankD

 

The 2nd Temple that Jesus referred to in Matt. 24 is described in Daniel 9:25 as being rebuilt after the Babylonians destroyed Solomon's Temple(1st) in his vision of the 70 weeks (of years). Dispensationalism teaches that there is no mention of the destruction of the 2nd Temple in Dan. Chapter 9. Absolute craziness and confusion. Think about this. According to Dispensational theology Daniel verse 25 mentions Jerusalem & the 2nd Temple(sanctuary) being rebuilt, but in the very next verse (26) it completely ignores the destruction of the 2nd Temple in 70AD altogether and is actually describing the destruction of Jerusalem and a 3rd Temple in our future by the "Anti-Christ" but no mention of the building of the future 3rd Temple!!! In Matthew 24 Jesus was talking about the exact same temple that Daniel described as being destroyed by the "The people of the ruler who will come" who was Titus, the 11th horn of the 4th beast(Rome) in 70AD.

 

Hank that was a mouthful from kyredneck... But I am now a biblical/historical/halfpret/nonprepostmil/ahmil/apocalyptic/nonrapture/resurrectionist... And it only took 16 years... Brother Glen

 

HankD

 

The big problem for the OP is the demand for physical, carnal, proof. Isaiah had that problem - Isaiah 6 - and Paul - Acts 28.

Jesus gave the signs of his coming, recorded in history, so why do you deny that coming?

 

Resurrectionists were commonly employed by anatomists in the United Kingdom during the 18th and 19th centuries to exhume the bodies of the recently dead. Between 1506 and 1752 only a very few cadavers were available each year for anatomical research.

Wow did I blow it!... When I said I didn't believe in a Rapture and was a Resurrectionist... I meant I believe in a Resurrection of the Dead... I'm not a body snatcher... Oops... Brother Glen

 

I probably should not get too involved in discussions of prophecy. It can be too tempting to think we've got it all worked out and therefore lock anyone elses' views out, then we end up as if in our own 'cult,' as I once was. Nevertheless, the events and especially the numbers can be interesting. Is it weeks or sevens in Daniel? It appears it can't be weeks/7 days, as that is not much more than a year. But 70 sevens/periods, in years, leads to ca. 45 b.c. Rome first conquered Judah in the 60's b.c. and began true occupation about 43-37 b.c. But the 70 years/sevens-- or in another passage, 62 + 7-- is in regard to rebuilding the temple and 'until Messiah.' About 40 years' difference. This also seems to neglect that the second temple, commissioned by Cyrus, had been virtually destroyed, and certainly desecrated, before the oMaccabeans. Then Herod, something like a liason, between the evil conqueror and the conquered, desired his name to be associated with major building projects, the temple being his masterpiece, per se. And this was completed about the time Jesus was born, or shortly after. Then 63-70 years after Jesus' birth, this temple was destroyed, and so many things Jesus had said did prove true at the time of this revolt-- flee, don't go back for anything, pray your flight is not on the sabbath [the gates would be closed and could not be opened]... And then there is no temple... except what Paul says about "You (plural; meaning believers) are the temple of the Lord." I have also wondered why, regarding the number of years, or sevens, there seems to be no mention anywhere (that I have seen) of the historical fact that the number of years between the Babylonian destruction the first temple and the Romans' destruction of the second temple was very close to 666 years. [The Bible does deal with the significant and multiple meanings of particular numbers-- you're not into "numerology" if you see that; Israelites 40 years in the desert Jesus 40 days; 6 days then a sabbath day, 6 years then a sabbath year; 12 tribes, 12 disciples, 12 gates, Jesus 12 when he astounded the scholars in the temple,.......]

Does this exclude a 3rd physical temple being built on the Mount? No. In fact this may be the essence of what I meant about thinking we've got it all figured out. Those last chapters of Ezekiel come immediately to mind. When I got my first apartment and had only been there a few days, and l had also recently been into biblical prophecy. Late one night I was reading from Ezekiel and I had a strange experience. I remember that something suddenly became so plain to me that I slowly put my Bible down with an open mouth. But a few seconds later, whatever this was, it left my memory. I remember it was there and compelled me to put the Bible down, but as soon as I did-- erasure. I have never been able to recall what I was thinking then. That, I suppose, is why I don't discuss, or even consider, prophecy all that much.

 

I've thought of such things in the night, and forgotten the details by morning.

My "baptism" hymn was half written in bed. I got up at 5, substantially finished it by 6 and went back to bed. It has full approval by the church.

 

Welcome to the forum.

 

See it here - Repent & be baptised

 

I have a question for you or anyone else who cares to answer it. If the Rapture is Imminent, How does Satan know when the antichrist is to be born? Or he is even born? Or is he just a normal man that satan enters?

Explain..

if no one knows when the rapture is to be how can the antichrist know when its time to rise up? He wouldn't have much time after this disappearing of millions of people.

 

Well obviously the ultimate course of time is not under his control but the fathers.

He seems to know the scriptures quite well and uses his knowledge in an attempt to thwart God.

No doubt he has a greater knowledge of prophecy than we.

He is probably the most intelligent created being in the universe and he seems always trying to outwit and/or second guess God.

Genesis 3:1-6.
Job 1:8-11

The antichrist - ? He seems to be a human instrument but I don't think we have enough information about him to determine his humanity or lack thereof.
"anti" can mean - against - or - in place of - or both.

HankD

 

Where is Israel in all this ....?

God speaks of my people Israel with the relationship -
Lev 26:12 - I will walk among you and be your God, and you shall be My people.

Perfectly fulfilled in the NH&NE:

Rev 21:3 - And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God.

My people establishes a personal relationship with faithful believers so that Paul & Peter take a passage in Hosea 2 about the fall & restoration of Israel as applying to Gentile believers also:
Rom 9:26 - “And it shall come to pass in the place where it was said to them, ‘You are not My people,’
There they shall be called sons of the living God.”

1Pe 2:9 - But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;
10 - who once were not a people but are now the people of God, who had not obtained mercy but now have obtained mercy.
We tend to think that Israel rejected their Messiah, but Acts records that many thousands believed & were baptised in Jesus' name from Pentecost onwards. Soon Gentiles were converted & were accepted into the church by the Jewish Christians, at first reluctantly.

The epistles make it clear that, in Christ, we're are all one people of God. Jesus spoke of one flock & one Shepherd.

Regardless of millennium views, many expect a large scale conversion of the Jews before the return of Christ. Dr Lloyd-Jones taught that, & my first Gospel Pastor wrote a booklet entitled "All Israel shall be saved."

If that does take place, will they be a separate people? I heard McArthur declare very firmly, "The Church is not Israel & Israel is not the Church." I don't think he was talking about unbelievers.

I disagree, I believe both Jews & Gentiles with a living faith in Christ will always be one redeemed people of God. That unbelieving Jews can only claim the promises if they do not continue in unbelief. Then they receive they full promises of God in Christ - as all believers do.

 

unsaved Jews just like any unsaved people get the same fate, and saved Jews just like any saved person gets the kingdom. They are not separate anymore. No need to resort back to sacrifices to save a "nation"

 

These numbers can be very confusing to say the least. The 490 years of Daniel 9 didn't make sense to me either until I started reading commentary from orthodox Jews. Although many of them do not believe in Jesus as their Messiah, we Christians can learn a great deal from them regarding the Old Testament. This web page has an explanation for the discrepancy in the calculations of the 490 years and where the proper starting point should be when counting the years: Daniel 9 – A True Biblical Interpretation There is a discrepancy in the chronology between the Jewish and secular(Gregorian) calendars of 166 years and that is why there is so much confusion. I believe the Jewish calendar is correct.