Still no facts supporting preterism!

[HankD]

unsaved Jews just like any unsaved people get the same fate, and saved Jews just like any saved person gets the kingdom. They are not separate anymore. No need to resort back to sacrifices to save a "nation"

actually, the animal sacrifices never saved anyone anyway.

HankD

 

[prophecy70]

actually, the animal sacrifices never saved anyone anyway.

HankD

either way the bible does not say anywhere that they are coming back.

 

[HankD]

either way the bible does not say anywhere that they are coming back.

If they did they would look back in time not forward.

HankD

 

[Alcott]

either way the bible does not say anywhere that they are coming back.

Ezekiel in his city and temple prohpecies- as in ch. 40, v. 41-- does refer to slaughtering the sacrifices. Is that in the past or in the future?

 

[Covenanter]

Ezekiel in his city and temple prohpecies- as in ch. 40, v. 41-- does refer to slaughtering the sacrifices. Is that in the past or in the future?

Ezekiel was prophesying to the exiles in Babylon after the destruction. The temple would be rebuilt, & sacrificial worship restored.

BUT tabernacle & temple were symbolic of a greater & enduring sacrifice & temple - Christ & his church built with living stones - his redeemed people.

There can NEVER be another acceptable physical temple & animal sacrifices. If there is a another temple in Jerusalem it will be in rejection of the saving FINISHED work of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Eph. 2:19 Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, 20 having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone, 21 in whom the whole building, being fitted together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord, 22 in whom you also are being built together for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit.

1 Peter 2:4 Coming to Him as to a living stone, rejected indeed by men, but chosen by God and precious, 5 you also, as living stones, are being built up a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.
..............
9 But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; 10 who once were not a people but are now the people of God, who had not obtained mercy but now have obtained mercy.​

 

[robycop3]

Hello Brothers and Sisters in Christ! This is my very 1st post on this board.(my parents were Baptists for many years). I'm a partial preterist, both amillennial and post-millennial at the same time. I tried to reply on another thread discussing the Porousia but did not have privileges. Here is a verse to consider and I'm curious how the futurists are explaining this nowadays: Matthew 16:27-28

27 For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father’s glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what they have done.
28 “Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.”

Some of the disciples saw Jesus in His transfuguration when He appeared with Moses and Elijah shortly before His "passion". Now, how did those disciples know who Moses & Elijah were, as no known portraits of them existed. Apparently, Jesus 'caused' them to know who they were by His power.

And remember, Jesus had already said that John The Baptist was the personification of Elijah, and some of the disciples had met him before he was murdered, & they all knew he was dead.

Now, will you please explain the absence in history of the eschatological events leading up to Jesus' retuen? And, if you believe they've already occurred, please explain Matthew 24:29 in which Jesus said He'd return during a great cosmological disturbance which will occur IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE GREAT TRIB. if that trib has already occurred, Jesus is long-overdue!

But the TRUTH is, NONE of those events have yet happened! As for the millenium, it's clearly indicated in the Revelation.

 

[robycop3]

If the events told about by Jesus have already taken place, how is it true that "not one stone (of the temple) will be left on top of another," when there is still that o.e wall standing?

The "Wailing Wall" is part of a wall that was built around the temple complex, not part of the temple itself.

 

[robycop3]

Brother Robycop, This web site provides an incredible amount of historical evidence for the fulfillment of the prophecies of Daniel, Jesus, and the Apostle John occurring in the 66-73 A.D time period: All Prophecies Fulfilled! | 817-793-9461 | Preterist Bible Commentary 1st century historians such as Josephus has recorded eyewitness accounts of heavenly armies in conflict in the clouds above Jerusalem starting in the year 66AD. Jesus, the Son of Man, was LITERALLY Seen in the Clouds in A.D. 66 - Revelation Revolution

To prevent confusion concerning my position, the web site All Prophecies Fulfilled! | 817-793-9461 | Preterist Bible Commentary is a full preterist web site. However, I'm a partial preterist. I reference Revelation Revolution because of the amount of historical research that Dr. Morais has done.

My position is somewhat unique even among partial preterists. I see the parousia of Christ as occurring in the 66-73 AD time period which included a resurrection gathering event. It is the same event described in Revelation 20:5 : (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. This resurrection event is also described in Daniel 12 verses 1 & 2. In Matthew 24 it is described in verses 30 & 31. So the 1st resurrection in Rev 20:5 occurred near 70 AD. There must be a second resurrection gathering in our future. I see us either approaching Revelation 20 verse 7 or already in Rev 20:7 toward the end of the "thousand years" which is a symbolic number of years(not a literal 1000 years) meaning a very long period of time. If we are in the period in which the 1st century adversary has been released to deceive the nations again, that explains a lot of the darkness that we are witnessing these days.

Sir, I saw that site a good while back, and it's full of imagination, conjecture, & guesswork.

First of all, when I was a child, I looked up at the clouds, especially when a collection of cumulus clouds was passing, & I imagined they were everything from dragons, flying fish & whales, to fighter planes & spaceships, to Santa's sleigh with flying reindeer. Apparently, some grown men played this same game that almost every child plays. And Josephus had been a leader of a Jewish rebellion against Rome who'd been forced to surrender, but managed to ingratiate himself to Vespasian, who adopted him as a member of the Flavius family. Naturally, Josephus was very careful not to displease any natural Flavius member! Thus, he embellished some of his stories.

Calling the likeness of a Roman ruler on a coin the "mark of the beast" is indeed a stretch!!!!!!!!!! In that case, we should call the US Presidents who appear on our money "beast-ettes"!!!!!!!!I dismiss that whole thingie as poppycock! (Remember, Jesus asked, "Whose likeness is on this coin?" & the answer was "Caesar's" He did NOT call it an idol or mark of the beast, but He said, "Render to Caesar what belongs to Caesar.")

So, please tell us when all life in the seas died. When was all green grass burned up? When was Jerusalem split into 3 parts by an earthquake? When did a ruler set up a talking statue in the temple in Jerusalem? When was there a rain of 100-LB rocks?

Was Nero the "antichrist"? Most assuredly NOT! Revelation says no man can defeat the AC, but Nero was brought down by General Galba & friends. And Nero was NOT cast alive into the lake of fire; he DIED in front of several witnesses who tried to save him after he had his secretary Epaphroditus stab him with a sword. Nor did he have a miracle-working false prophet as his deputy. And there are many more criteria for the "beast/antichrist/man of sin' that Nero didn't meet, while the TRUE 'beast MUST meet every one of them EXACTLY!

I hope you compare actual unbiased history with Scripture to see that the prophesied eschatological events have NOT yet occurred, so you realize preterism is simply a false doctrine invented by MAN, made prominent by some jeezits who wanted to protect the pope frombeing labeled the 'beast. (Another false doctrine in itself! )

 

[robycop3]

HankD, I have to disagree with your definition of Full Preterism. Full Preterism is the belief that all prophecy recorded in the Bible has past fulfillment. In other words any prophetic statement made in the Bible from Genesis 1:1 to Revelation 22:21 has already been fulfilled.

What HAS been fulfilled is generally not considered to be part of pret doctrine. Most preterists are concerned with the ESCHATOLOGICAL events.

 

[Revelation 20:5]

Some of the disciples saw Jesus in His transfuguration when He appeared with Moses and Elijah shortly before His "passion". Now, how did those disciples know who Moses & Elijah were, as no known portraits of them existed. Apparently, Jesus 'caused' them to know who they were by His power.

And remember, Jesus had already said that John The Baptist was the personification of Elijah, and some of the disciples had met him before he was murdered, & they all knew he was dead.

Now, will you please explain the absence in history of the eschatological events leading up to Jesus' retuen? And, if you believe they've already occurred, please explain Matthew 24:29 in which Jesus said He'd return during a great cosmological disturbance which will occur IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE GREAT TRIB. if that trib has already occurred, Jesus is long-overdue!

But the TRUTH is, NONE of those events have yet happened! As for the millenium, it's clearly indicated in the Revelation.

Brother Robycop, the discussion Jesus was having with the disciples in Matthew 16 had nothing to do with the transfiguaration miracle. That is conjecture on your part. Now I see how dispensational futurists are explaining Matthew 16: 27-28.

Verse 21 states: From that time on Jesus began to explain to his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things at the hands of the elders, the chief priests and the teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and on the third day be raised to life." I don't see any mention of Elijah or Moses. The message was for his disciples! Here is the rest of that section of Matthew 16 so everyone can see the context of whom this message was intended for:

24 Then Jesus said to his disciples, “Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross and follow me. 25 For whoever wants to save their lifef]">[f] will lose it, but whoever loses their life for me will find it. 26 What good will it be for someone to gain the whole world, yet forfeit their soul? Or what can anyone give in exchange for their soul? 27 For the Son of Man is going to come(parousia) in his Father’s glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what they have done. 28 “Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.”

 

[prophecy70]

Ezekiel in his city and temple prohpecies- as in ch. 40, v. 41-- does refer to slaughtering the sacrifices. Is that in the past or in the future?

I believe it was a conditional temple if the Israelites would stay out of sin but they didn't, so the actual new temple became one not made with hands or stones and now is the church, the body of christ and Jesus was the final sacrifice. This is why I see Futurism as flawed, If Jesus payed the ultimate price why does israel have to make a new temple that is rejecting Jesus?

 

[prophecy70]

Was Nero the "antichrist"?

So tell me is this future antichrist going to be born?
If the "rapture" is imminent how is this possible?

 

[Revelation 20:5]

Sir, I saw that site a good while back, and it's full of imagination, conjecture, & guesswork.

First of all, when I was a child, I looked up at the clouds, especially when a collection of cumulus clouds was passing, & I imagined they were everything from dragons, flying fish & whales, to fighter planes & spaceships, to Santa's sleigh with flying reindeer. Apparently, some grown men played this same game that almost every child plays. And Josephus had been a leader of a Jewish rebellion against Rome who'd been forced to surrender, but managed to ingratiate himself to Vespasian, who adopted him as a member of the Flavius family. Naturally, Josephus was very careful not to displease any natural Flavius member! Thus, he embellished some of his stories.

Calling the likeness of a Roman ruler on a coin the "mark of the beast" is indeed a stretch!!!!!!!!!! In that case, we should call the US Presidents who appear on our money "beast-ettes"!!!!!!!!I dismiss that whole thingie as poppycock! (Remember, Jesus asked, "Whose likeness is on this coin?" & the answer was "Caesar's" He did NOT call it an idol or mark of the beast, but He said, "Render to Caesar what belongs to Caesar.")

So, please tell us when all life in the seas died. When was all green grass burned up? When was Jerusalem split into 3 parts by an earthquake? When did a ruler set up a talking statue in the temple in Jerusalem? When was there a rain of 100-LB rocks?

Was Nero the "antichrist"? Most assuredly NOT! Revelation says no man can defeat the AC, but Nero was brought down by General Galba & friends. And Nero was NOT cast alive into the lake of fire; he DIED in front of several witnesses who tried to save him after he had his secretary Epaphroditus stab him with a sword. Nor did he have a miracle-working false prophet as his deputy. And there are many more criteria for the "beast/antichrist/man of sin' that Nero didn't meet, while the TRUE 'beast MUST meet every one of them EXACTLY!

I hope you compare actual unbiased history with Scripture to see that the prophesied eschatological events have NOT yet occurred, so you realize preterism is simply a false doctrine invented by MAN, made prominent by some jeezits who wanted to protect the pope frombeing labeled the 'beast. (Another false doctrine in itself! )

Ok, I see that any historical evidence that I reference will be "bogus" in your eyes so now I will discuss internal evidence...the evidence of what is written to determine the time element of the Book Of Revelation. Here is Revelation 1 verses 1-3:

1 The revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John, 2 who testifies to everything he saw—that is, the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ. 3 Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near.

Right there in the prologue is the timing of the events of the Book of Revelation. It is confirmed at the end of the book in chapter 22:

6 And he said unto me, “These sayings are faithful and true,” and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent His angel to show unto His servants the things which must shortly be done.

In the following 2 verses, I'm about to show how so many Christians have read these and completely missed the correlation. I'm referring to Daniel 12:9 and Revelation 22:10. Daniel 12:9 states:

Dan 12:9 - And he said, “Go thy way, Daniel, for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end."

Rev 22:10 - And he said unto me, “Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book, for the time is at hand."

Daniel was told to seal up the words of the prophecy until the time of the end. In Revelation 22:10 John was told to not seal up the sayings of this book, for the time is at hand. The Greek word here is "engys" which means near. The term "imminence" that dispensational futurists are using to explain these verses as occurring "at any time" (even thousands of years into the future ) doesn't mean a long period of time either. Any dictionary will define "imminence" as something that will occur soon: Imminent dictionary definition | imminent defined When was Revelation written? I know the futurists will say it was written during the time of Domitian but there were no cataclysmic events that occurred at that time. There was also a Jewish problem among some of the 7 churches at the time the Book of Revelation was read, see Rev 2:9. That concept is absolutely ridiculous post 70AD.

 

[HankD]

I believe it was a conditional temple if the Israelites would stay out of sin but they didn't, so the actual new temple became one not made with hands or stones and now is the church, the body of christ and Jesus was the final sacrifice. This is why I see Futurism as flawed, If Jesus payed the ultimate price why does israel have to make a new temple that is rejecting Jesus?

Those who believe that there will be a millennial temple with animal sacrifice restored generally say:

The blood of bulls and goats never took away sin but looked forward to the shed blood of the final propitiating sacrifice.
In the millennial temple the blood of bulls and goats will not take away sin either but will look back as a memorial sacrifice.

I am undecided about this.

HankD

 

[prophecy70]

Ok, I see that any historical evidence that I reference will be "bogus" in your eyes so now I will discuss internal evidence...the evidence of what is written to determine the time element of the Book Of Revelation. Here is Revelation 1 verses 1-3:

Everything we reply is bogus to him, His replies are like a broken record.

 

[Alcott]

The "Wailing Wall" is part of a wall that was built around the temple complex, not part of the temple itself.

That's already been discusses on pp.1-2; the key whether "all these things" included that wall or not.

 

[Alcott]

I believe it was a conditional temple if the Israelites would stay out of sin but they didn't, so the actual new temple became one not made with hands or stones and now is the church, the body of christ and Jesus was the final sacrifice. This is why I see Futurism as flawed, If Jesus payed the ultimate price why does israel have to make a new temple that is rejecting Jesus?

The face that they don't "have to" doesn't mean they wont.

 

[Alcott]

When did a ruler set up a talking statue in the temple in Jerusalem? When was there a rain of 100-LB rocks?

Not a talking statue [we presume], but I knew Antoichus had set a statue. jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/1589-antiochus-iv-epiphanes

But what is a talking statue? A robot/humanoid? Or something simpler and nonelectronic that might have been available at that time and area of the world is the mechanical minds were there? We know there were water clocks that signaled hours, and mirror setups that could set set buildings or ships on fire, for instance. I have an old Victor adding machine that is entirely mechanical that my grandfather used in the store he ran.

 

[Covenanter]

There are two main arguments the premil antipreterists use.

Unfulfilled OC prophecy regarding a glorious future for Israel when Messiah comes
And
Jesus' coming in AD seventy isn't recorded in history.

Both demand a carnal "literal" interpretation of prophecy. Both deny the spiritual interpretation seen in Acts and the letters.

They even reject what they read in Revelation 6 relating to the destruction where the land (of Israel) suffers as prophesied in Ezekiel 14:21 and Jesus in Luke 23:30.

Scripture does not need a millennium for the fulfilment of prophecy. Jesus suffered, died and rose, and ascended to his heavenly throne according to prophecy, fulfilled the promises to Israel by the Gospel as many thousands believed in Jesus Christ as Messiah, Lord, Saviour and King.

The first resurrection of souls is explained by Jesus as saving faith, contrasted with bodily resurrection. John 5:24-30

 

[prophecy70]

So, please tell us when all life in the seas died. When was all green grass burned up? When was Jerusalem split into 3 parts by an earthquake? When did a ruler set up a talking statue in the temple in Jerusalem? When was there a rain of 100-LB rocks?

A talking statue