World or elect

Hmmmm. Not sure I agree with you 100% on this but appreciate the breakdown.

 

Well there's the whole sheep thing in John 10 to which you seem to have such an aversion. Does the Good Shepherd lay down His life for the goats? Yes or no. Also:
'Having loved His own who were in the world, He loved them to the end [or 'to the uttermost']' (John 13:1). God has compassion for all He has made, He makes His sun rise on the evil and the good and sends rain on the just and unjust; He is kind to the unthankful and evil, He endures with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction; but He loves His own. He has loved them from eternity (Jeremiah 31:3 etc.), chosen them in love before the foundation of the world to be holy and without blame before Him (Ephesians 1:4), and He loves them to the nth degree.

But can you find me a 'direct statement' that Jesus Christ shed His blood for people who would end up in hell?

 

Recall what TCassidy said elsewhere:

I believe the Atonement is sufficient for all and efficient only for those who believe. And most Arminians will believe the same. Arminians also limit the Atonement to believers only.

 

The Spirit expressly said, that He shall save His people from their sins.

There you go. His people. Those are the ones HE saves.

HE saves.

They don't save themselves.

Oh, but wait, there's this word "world" that changes all that! LOL.

I'm done. If your screen name is any indication, you're old and set in your ways. If you won't yield to the Scriptures, all that's left for me to do is to jeer and mock, and that's against the rules.

 

I've been listening to the various responses. Remarkably, I think all here agree on limited salvation. I don't think there are any universalists here. I believe all here would believe Christ's death was sufficient for all, but only beneficial for the elect. And in the next 50 years or so, we're all going to know for sure what the details are and who on this thread had the best understanding of them. But I have these funny feeling no one's going to care. I think we might also find out in the next life, many of the details were beyond our ability to understand and we spent way too much time trying to hammer them out.

 

1) The difference between takes - what the Bible says, and took -what the bible does not say is the difference between truth and falsehood. If you claim you cannot comprehend that distinction, no further discuss will be fruitful. Took refers to a past action, as if Christ had already taken away the sin of the world, but takes refers to an ongoing action with Christ taking the sins of the lost one sinner at a time, from His death to the end of the age, in our future.

2) I have addressed the meaning of "world" twice. Here is a quote from post #137:

3) The claim I am replacing "world" with "believers" is once again utterly false.

4) I share some Arminian views, (a) our election for salvation was through faith, and (b) Christ died for all mankind, the whole world.
But I am not an Arminian, or a Calvinist. My views are based on what scripture clearly teaches.

Goodbye

Van

 

Christ is the propitiation or means of salvation for the whole world, 1 John 2:2. I note you cannot support your bogus view from scripture.
Calimian, pay no attention to how Agedman describes my views, he misrepresents them.

The word translated "sanctification" in 2 Thessalonians 2:13 can mean to set apart for a purpose, or can refer to a process of making someone or something holy. In this verse, because it is describing the verb "chose" its meaning is to set apart for a purpose. This occurs when the Spirit "baptizes" the individual into Christ, Romans 6:3.

When we are baptized into Christ, our sin burden is removed by the circumcision of Christ.

 

A propitiation is a sacrifice that turns away wrath. If you were to upset Mrs Agedman in some way (I'm sure you never do), you might buy her a bunch of flowers or a box of chocs in order to assuage her righteous anger against you. That would be a propitiation.

Now Hebrews 9:22 states that 'without the shedding of blood there is no remission.' But the blood without the death of the creature is likewise of no effect. There is a lot of blood in a sheep, and even more in a bull. But the offerer could not simply open a vein in the sacrifice, flick some blood on the altar, seal up the wound and put the beast back in the field. No! 'For the life of the flesh is in the blood' (Leviticus 17:11). As I have said before, 'blood' is a synechdoche, a figure of speech where the part stands for the whole. The creature had to die; this pointed to the Lord Jesus Christ who suffered and died as a propitiation for our sins.

I don't see why. John says that Christ is the propitiation, not only for our sins but for something else. He is making a contrast. Not only is it this, but it's something else as well.

It's the earth, planet earth, and if it's true, then there's every reason for the Holy Spirit to be teaching it.

I don't think so. We ourselves have been redeemed by Christ, but we still continue in our sickly aging bodies, Paul compares our bodies with the 'creation' in Romans 8:23-24. We shall have new bodies when Christ returns, and they will be new-- it won't just be a facelift and a bit of liposuction! Bodies that have been mouldering to dust for centuries and eaten by worms won't be repaired-- we shall have new bodies. So it is with this old world which is wearing out like a garment. There will be a new one. It will be recognizable, but infinitely better.



The Revelation shows what becomes of this earthly estate and the heaven, both of which Satan has polluted by his presence.

1Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and there is no longer any sea.​

The curse is never removed, but is done away with the passing of both heaven and earth.

So the credibility of the thinking does not withstand the scrutiny of the Scriptures.

Xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxcxxxxxxx

All that said, the use of the world to suggest it signifies the elect is still lacking the support of Scripture.[/QUOTE]

 

So you believe that our Lord laid down His life for those who were not His sheep. OK.
But the Lord Jesus says specifically that the Good Shepherd lays down His life for the sheep (John 10:11). He does not say that He lays it down for anybody else.
But follow through the 'sheep talk.' The sheep are given to Christ by the Father (John 10:29), and He will lose not even one of them (John 8:39; 10:28; 17:2). He tells the Jewish leaders, "But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep" (John 10:26). So one does not become a sheep by believing; one believes because one is a sheep.
How are the Lord's sheep identified? Well, they are a special breed. They are identified by their ears and their feet. "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them and they follow Me" (John 10:27; cf. also v.4). So those who do not hear the Shepherd's voice and do not follow Him are not His sheep QED, and He did not lay down His life for them. In fact, so far is He from laying down His life for them, He doesn't even know them (compare John 10:14 with Matthew 7:23).

I'll look at the rest of your post tomorrow; it's past bed-time in the UK.

 

If you feel like you have it all worked out, I an only say congratulations. I'm not there yet.

 

Once again, it will depend on how you define world. John 3:16 does not mean that God loved all the people in the world sooooo much that He gave His only-begotten Son for them, because He didn't. He gave Him for the 'whosoever believes.' In fact, as has been pointed out many times, John 3:16 means, 'This is how God loved the world......'

As I wrote above, God has compassion for all He has made; He makes His sun rise on the evil and the good and sends rain on the just and unjust; He is kind to the unthankful and evil, He endures with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction; but He loves His own. He has loved them from eternity (Jeremiah 31:3 etc.), chosen them in love before the foundation of the world to be holy and without blame before Him (Ephesians 1:4), and He loves them to the nth degree.

I have to go off the church now and the thread may be closed by the time I get back, so my apologies for not having replied more fully.