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Monergism vs Synergism
- Thread starter thatbrian
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In what other situation is the receiving of the gift also considered part of the giving of the gift?
Do you enjoy putting forth strawman arguments?
It may be an over-simplification, but it is not entirely a straw man argument.
Those who believe the will is free (IE NOT in bondage to the law of sin and death) believe they must "have faith," "repent," and "obey" the Gospel in order to be born again.
That looks very close to "Christ did His part on the Cross but the rest is left up to us."
My salvation is all of Him and none of me. He brought me under the preaching of the Gospel which the Father used to draw me to the Son, while the Holy Spirit regenerated my sin sick soul, and gave me the faith to believe, the ability to repent, and the desire to obey Him and His word.
All of Him, none of me.
This is a non-sequitur. Nobody, except you, has made such a claim.
This is the response that could be applied to the OP, as in:
Did Jesus save you, or did He simply die and leave the rest up to you?
This is a non-sequitur. Nobody, except you, has made such a claim
Except I haven't made such a claim. So your response is a non-sequitur.
Except I haven't made such a claim. So your response is a non-sequitur.
Didn't say you made the claim. I said:
This is the response that could be applied to the OP
God secured real salvation for a real group of sinners by the death of jesus on their behalf, and he calls them His elect!
It may be an over-simplification, but it is not entirely a straw man argument.
Those who believe the will is free (IE NOT in bondage to the law of sin and death) believe they must "have faith," "repent," and "obey" the Gospel in order to be born again.
That looks very close to "Christ did His part on the Cross but the rest is left up to us."
My salvation is all of Him and none of me. He brought me under the preaching of the Gospel which the Father used to draw me to the Son, while the Holy Spirit regenerated my sin sick soul, and gave me the faith to believe, the ability to repent, and the desire to obey Him and His word.
All of Him, none of me.
My salvation is all of Him and none of me even though He has set in place that I should respond by faith upon hearing the gospel. Its all Him because it is His power that provides the ability, His authority that authorizes the salvation, His initiation by seeing to it I heard the gospel, and His plan that I should choose to receive it or reject it. It all Him.
In reality he may do one or the other. You analogy is week and fails to create the example you wished.
If I am on a cruise ship going from San Diego to Honolulu, and fall off half way between those two ports, and nobody notices, I will surely die.
However, along comes a fishing boat and the captain pulls me in and saves my life. What did I have to do with that? Nothing.
But when we get 100 miles from the Port of Hawaii, I do something that makes the captain mad and he throws me overboard and I drown.
So, did he save me or not? Could I swim the last 100 miles to Hawaii? Not a chance.
However, along comes a fishing boat and the captain pulls me in and saves my life. What did I have to do with that? Nothing.
But when we get 100 miles from the Port of Hawaii, I do something that makes the captain mad and he throws me overboard and I drown.
So, did he save me or not? Could I swim the last 100 miles to Hawaii? Not a chance.
I don't know if that works. It seems too physical.
You waited. You bobbed. You dogpaddled. You kept breathing. You did something to keep from going straight down.
If you're really physically doing nothing, you're already dead. Or you'll drown in a bit.
If you resist the captain pulling you out, you'll end up dead.
Either way, you're dead.
He
He did save you the first time. Physically. But it didn't last because he undid it.
Maybe spiritual salvation is more of a process in a lot of instances than just a one-moment-in-time definition?
And before I was saved I lived, breathed, and went right on living.
Resist? Do I look stupid?
I died. He didn't save me. Period.
Not according to Orthodox, Conservative, Evangelical Christianity.
A train leaves Philadelphia for New York at 3:00 pm and travels at 60 mph. Another train leaves New York for Philadelphia at 3:30 pm and travels at 75 mph. If the distance between the cities is 90 miles, when and at what point will the train pass?
If you don't want to engage in the discussion, don't. But don't post inanities.
If and when people show themselves incapable or unwilling to engage in debate as mature adults, the ignore feature comes in handy.
As a Baptist Board Administrator it would be unethical for me to put anyone on "ignore" as one of my responsibilities is to review what has been posted to insure there are no rule violations. Using the "ignore" feature would result in my reading, reviewing, and ruling on some posts but not on others. My responsibility as an Administrator is to treat all posters the same.
No one is going to claim that Jesus did some of the work but that they themselves finished their own salvation. Therefore there will be no mature debate. Since your premise of people finishing their own salvation is obviously a strawman fallacy no mature debate will follow.
Oh, and in the future you might want to add this phrase to your strawman premise, since it's somewhat of a key component of Christianity:
"Did Jesus save you, or did He simply die and rise from the dead and leave the rest up to you?"
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