So you admit Christ did not complete your salvation on the cross but you had to add your free will faith in order to be saved? You don't believe that is a fallacy?
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Monergism vs Synergism
- Thread starter thatbrian
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To borrow an oft, oft, oft used phrase of yours--"Show me where I said that."
Election was difficult for me at first.....I had to sort through scriptures .....and here is what was illuminating.
"for it is by grace you have been saved, through faith---and this not from yourselves, it is a gift of God---not by works, so that no one can boast' (Ephesians 2:8-9)
"for it is by grace you have been saved, through faith---and this not from yourselves, it is a gift of God---not by works, so that no one can boast' (Ephesians 2:8-9)
Yes, our salvation is not something we can achieve by works, salvation is a gift of God.
And therein lies the problem. You refuse to say. So, is your salvation all of God or did you have to add your faith to His work on the cross?
I think election is hard for everyone. But it is in the bible. Over and over again. So we have to deal with it. Too many want to turn their heads aside and pretend they don't see it. Or they try to change the subject. Or ask you to post a quote from them saying they don't believe in election while refusing to post their understanding of the topic. And the sad thing is that proper soteriology is at the very heart of Christianity.
To use another tactic of yours:
What part of "no one on Baptist Board is going to claim that Jesus did some of the work but that they themselves finished their own salvation" do you not understand?
I said No One.
That would include me.
But, if you insist, as to my salvation, Jesus did it all. It's all of God.
So your exercising your faith was not necessary for your regeneration?
No, but God igniting my faith was necessary.
So you already had faith that God ignited? Is this "innate faith?"
And if you already had faith in Christ as Lord and Savior, what was wrong with that "faith" that it needed "igniting?"
And is there anywhere in the bible where "igniting" faith is mentioned?
God gives everyone a measure of faith (Rom. 12:3).
I never said I already had faith in Christ as Lord and Savior. Those are your words.
I believe that everyone has a sense that there is a God, a creator. This is put there by God. (Rom 1:19-20; Psa. 19:1-2) A minimal amount of faith that there is a God, there is a savior.
Same place where it says you must be regenerated in order to have faith.
So now you are saying faith is a gift from God?
Well, what was it that needed "igniting" then?
Actually, I have had people in the Synergist camp state exactly that. They word it a bit differently, but they make the point that the pivot of salvation rests on the sinner, not God. Actually, I respect (not agree) my Synergist brethren who are honest in their stated soteriology. If the sinner must exercise his free will to accept or reject the Gospel, then the deciding factor in salvation is not God, it is the sinner. It's the old "lead a horse to water but can't make him drink" conundrum.
I used to know an "evangelist" who would close every sermon with the old "God casts a vote, Satan casts a vote, and you cast a vote. Which side are you going to vote for?"
When I was in Seminary I worked for Midwest Federal, downtown. A lot of the guys who worked in the parking garage were students at North Central Bible College (AOG/Pentecostal). We would get talking and I would say that salvation is not by works and they, inevitably would respond, "Well, you gotta do something!"
There are many things that differ between the various churches, baptism, polity, autonomy, ordinances verses sacraments, the pastoral office, and those are what so many arguments center around.
But the devil has gone after the most important doctrine of all: The Gospel. And he has so subtly twisted it that many (most) have failed to see his monstrous deception.
When I was in Seminary I worked for Midwest Federal, downtown. A lot of the guys who worked in the parking garage were students at North Central Bible College (AOG/Pentecostal). We would get talking and I would say that salvation is not by works and they, inevitably would respond, "Well, you gotta do something!"
There are many things that differ between the various churches, baptism, polity, autonomy, ordinances verses sacraments, the pastoral office, and those are what so many arguments center around.
But the devil has gone after the most important doctrine of all: The Gospel. And he has so subtly twisted it that many (most) have failed to see his monstrous deception.
The church I now attend has this interim pastor who is a Synergist, nice guy but he attacked me for my beliefs in DOG. I brought that up to the guy who is head of the committee to find another pastor (who is the acting director of Trinity Church in Montville NJ—a Reformed organization). He told me that they will not select another permanent pastor that is a Synergist, but for the time being this guys in place. That is a Conundrum for me...so what should I do? I can’t join obviously but I generally like the church family.I used to know an "evangelist" who would close every sermon with the old "God casts a vote, Satan casts a vote, and you cast a vote. Which side are you going to vote for?"
When I was in Seminary I worked for Midwest Federal, downtown. A lot of the guys who worked in the parking garage were students at North Central Bible College (AOG/Pentecostal). We would get talking and I would say that salvation is not by works and they, inevitably would respond, "Well, you gotta do something!"
There are many things that differ between the various churches, baptism, polity, autonomy, ordinances verses sacraments, the pastoral office, and those are what so many arguments center around.
But the devil has gone after the most important doctrine of all: The Gospel. And he has so subtly twisted it that many (most) have failed to see his monstrous deception.
Election and Sovereignty are two doctrines that have been a blessing to me to learn more fully about!
They get to that distinction mainly in a desire to keep real free will, as to them, God has honored that before all other things, and has agreed to limit Himself to saving us once we allow Him to do that by placing"our faith" unto Jesus!
You don't believe Christ completed your salvation on the cross either.
Of course I do. All of Him. None of me.
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