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Atonement sparks discussion at NOBTS forum

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Revmitchell, Nov 21, 2017.

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  1. Rebel1

    Rebel1 Active Member

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    Quite so. All well-said.
     
    #161 Rebel1, Nov 25, 2017
  2. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    That argument only works within the context Agedman has rejected. This is what I meant before when some said differences in theories minute. It is substantial. Only within Calvinism does this equate to universal salvation. You are assigning to others your own presuppositions.
     
    #162 JonC, Nov 25, 2017
  3. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    Absolutely no Scripture limiting the blood to only the elect.

    Perhaps thatbrian has been too long at the brew that he sees what is not and proves what is necessarily in doubt.
     
    #163 agedman, Nov 25, 2017
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2017
  4. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    So lost sinner si hell are there with their sins propitiated before god on their account?
     
    #164 Yeshua1, Nov 25, 2017
  5. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    If God actually provided for all sinners real propitiation, then all lost sinners are in hell when they are reconciled back to God?
     
    #165 Yeshua1, Nov 25, 2017
  6. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    The unsaved are in that place because they are unsaved.

    They are unsaved not because of a lack of blood, but because they do not believe.

    “Those that do not believe are already condemned”
     
    #166 agedman, Nov 25, 2017
  7. Squire Robertsson

    Squire Robertsson Administrator
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    Six Hour Warning
    This thread will be closed sometime after 5 PM Pacific.
     
    #167 Squire Robertsson, Nov 25, 2017
  8. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    So their sins were not propitiated for then?
    They were never reconciled back to God?
     
    #168 Yeshua1, Nov 25, 2017
  9. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    Again you seem to stumble at this single problem involving the repeal of sin and one being saved

    They are not the same.

    One can have propitiation yet not believe. This is often the truth of those in the OT. Though the atonement was done, the sin burden resolved, not everyone was saved.

    One cannot be saved without propitiation, but propitiation does not guarantee salvation.

    Salvation is the granted by God in the gift of belief, not blood.

    Math example:

    propitiated = A
    gifted with Belief = B
    Salvation = C

    A + B = C

    C - B = A not C

    C - A = B not C

    A does not equal C
    B does not equal C

    Only A + B = C

    Therefore, although all people of all time have propitiation of sin, not all people of all time are saved.
     
    #169 agedman, Nov 25, 2017
  10. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    This makes no sense. What are you talking about?
     
    #170 JonC, Nov 25, 2017
  11. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    Because the thinking that the blood is only for salvation, there is a problem considering people in hell are not sent there because of sin, but because of unbelief.

    Foundational to all Scriptural views of the atonement is that they must place salvation as both a gift of God and that gift is bestowed as belief.

    It is unbelief that is “condemned already” and not the lack of propitiation
     
    #171 agedman, Nov 25, 2017
  12. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    I neglected to make a statement concerning agreement in part of you question

    “They were never reconciled back to God” is true.

    Though they were indee propitiated, the reconciliation was not determined by propitiation alone.

    Paul preached “the message of reconciliation” and those that believed were saved.
     
    #172 agedman, Nov 25, 2017
  13. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Ah. He has a less than Christ-centered approach.
     
    #173 JonC, Nov 25, 2017
  14. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    No, rather he was suggesting that the blood of Jesus was the propitiation for all sinners, and if so, then all have been reconciled back to God!
     
    #174 Yeshua1, Nov 25, 2017
  15. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    People go to Hell due to being sinners by birth and by choice, born already in a state of condemnation before even rejecting Christ!
     
    #175 Yeshua1, Nov 25, 2017
  16. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    You are imposing your theory onto his statement. He is not following your theory, so no, Christ is the propitiation for the sins of all men. They need to be reconciled to God in Christ, not works.
     
    #176 JonC, Nov 25, 2017
  17. thatbrian

    thatbrian Well-Known Member
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    The blood of Christ was shed for all men? You are indeed a Universalist.
     
    #177 thatbrian, Nov 25, 2017
  18. thatbrian

    thatbrian Well-Known Member
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    And none regarding the Trinity, either.

    We form our doctrine from the whole counsel of God. Using "verse-theology" only leads to heresy.
     
    #178 thatbrian, Nov 25, 2017
  19. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Did His death propitiate the wrath of God towards lost sinners?
     
    #179 Yeshua1, Nov 25, 2017
  20. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    You folks need to understand that the sacrificial death of Christ, the propitiation, and the atonement, though similar, are not identically the same.

    Christ died (shed His blood is a metaphor referring to proof of His violent death) for all. 2 Corinthians 5:15 And that he died for all ...

    Atonement is the reparation or expiation for sin.

    Propitiation is the price of the atonement.

    So, Christ died for all.

    The Atonement is sufficient for all, efficient only for those who believe, to whom it is applied.

    Propitiation is the price, the violent death, with the shed blood being the proof and the price of our redemption.
     
    #180 TCassidy, Nov 25, 2017
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