Preterists still won't give up...

[robycop3]

...Despite their absolute lack of any EVIDENCE to support their claims, the preterists here still won't admit their doctrine is false. We have gone through at least six complete threads where they've had every opportunity to present such evidence if it existed, but they're still batting ZERO.

Let's pick up a few loose ends from the previous thread. First of all, Mr. kent, MY ENGLISH ISN'T LIMITED. I do lots of electronic communicating, and I often resort to shortcuts, handles, textese, & other typing-savers. I'm likely a 'WAY-better speller than you are. My English is limited only by myself in often employing message brevity.

Nest, Titus was NOT the prince of Daniel 9:26. you're correct in saying he didn't want the temple destroyed. The Romans thought there was gold concealed between its stones, so they pulled it apart. And Titus certainly did NOT commit the AOD, nor did he have a miracle-working false prophet as his deputy.

As for my theory about a rogue planet causing the plagues of the great trib, you who criticize it apparently overlooked the fact that I said it was a GUESS, but it's also a very-possible scenario, as evidence mounts that Venus was once such a "rogue" & likely caused the events of the Exodus.(which, BTW, occurred alloover the world in various places, while others were spared. For example, parts of China were vastly flooded.) And, of course, God might cause those events to occur by entirely-supernatural means.

And there's no clear-cut event(s) that can be indicated as the fulfillment of the remainder of the 70th prophetic week. Given the rapid pace of life now possible due to modern inventions & mobility, it's easily-possible for all the eschatological events, including all the things the "man of sin" will do, to be done in 3.5 years. And TODAY'S "great falling away" is the worst in history. In medieval times, the word of God eas not so readily-available as it is now, but most modern people choose to ignore it, or "have a form of godliness while denying its POWER" as was prophesied.

But at any rate, the burden of proof rests with the PRETERISTS,as THEY have made the assertions that the eschatological events have already occurred. And I maintain that Jesus' prophecies MUSTbe fulfilled exactly as written in the original language, to the letter. Otherwise, that'd make Jesus a liar, or mistaken, which is unthinkable to a Christian, especially a Baptist. So, preterists, let's see your EVIDENCE for the veracity of your doctrine, or an admission you were fooled by some wolf in sheeps' clothes.

 

[David Kent]

Oh dear, you are at your old rant again without answering my questions. But the People of the Price who would come and the AOD were not part of the determined seventy weeks, but were the result of those events. The important part of the seventy weeks and were those 6 determined events, but you have failed to answer.

I said all six points which were determined for the seventy weeks were fulfilled in Christ. You picked out two of those and disagree on one and partially agree on another but have evaded answering the other four.
So let us try again.

I asked "Shall we discuss these in order?
No 1). to finish the transgression, I tried to make it easy for you by splitting them to one at a time, "
So would you like to answer that.

I believe that Jesus fulfilled that in His ministry.

 

[David Kent]

Nest, Titus was NOT the prince of Daniel 9:26. you're correct in saying he didn't want the temple destroyed. The Romans thought there was gold concealed between its stones, so they pulled it apart. And Titus certainly did NOT commit the AOD, nor did he have a miracle-working false prophet as his deputy.

Wolf in sheep's clothing eh?

You say that Titus was not the prince to come. He did come and his people, the Roman soldiers did destroy the temple and make it desolate. These armies were the AOD, they made the city and temple desolate and before they destroyed it they sacrificed to their standards in the Holy Place.

Luke 21:20 ¶ And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
Josephus in his chapter "A brief history of Jerusalem" said there were two desolations of the city. First by Nebuchadnezzar and the second by Titus.

The Romans thought there was treasure in tunnels under Jerusalem. I watched a TV programme recently that showed some people who still thought there was, entering some areas of the tunnels that were forbidden by the authorities.

Where did you get that gem from? Venus being a rogue planet? The planets were placed there perfectly by God at creation.

 

[Rant]

Replacement theology played a key role in the persecution of Jews by the Roman Catholic Church and Roman Catholic political rulers for centuries to come. In the name of Jesus Christ, hundreds of thousands of Jews were slaughtered as “Christ killers,” and numerous others were uprooted and forced to move to other countries.
Recent Catholic leaders have worked aggressively to reverse their historical antipathy toward Jews, starting with Nostra Aetate, a 1965 Vatican II document often credited as a breakthrough in Catholic/Jewish relations. John Paul II promoted Jewish relations and Holocaust awareness as major tenets of his papacy. Pope Benedict XVI, a German who grew up during World War II, shows similar interests. But in February 2009, Roman Catholic Bishop Richard Williamson was widely quoted as denying the Holocaust occurred, provoking another break in Catholic/Jewish dialogue.
Though the 16th century Protestant reformers broke away from the Roman Catholic Church in several key areas of ecclesiology and doctrine, many of them continued to reject Chiliasm as being “Jewish opinions.” Many of the reformers maintained the amillennial view that the Roman Catholic Church had adopted from Augustine. As a result, in much the same manner as the Roman Catholic Church, they believed that they had the right to enforce their beliefs and policies upon all people, including Jews. This does not mean that all the reformers advocated persecution of Jews. However, one certainly did.
Martin Luther adopted a strong anti-Semitic disposition toward Jews, and wrote and preached extremely vitriolic statements of hatred against them.16 Adolph Hitler read Luther’s statements to the German people to justify the systematic elimination of millions of Jews in the Holocaust of World War II. Today such views are not regarded as mainstream Lutheran thought; some conservative Lutheran groups sponsor outreach ministries to Jews.
Covenant theology began to develop as a system of theology in the Reformed churches of Switzerland and Germany in the 16th and 17th centuries; passed to the Netherlands, Scotland, and England; and eventually came to America.17 Advocates of covenant theology adopted replacement theology in relationship to the nation of Israel. As a result, they claimed that, because Israel rejected Christ as its Messiah, God forever rejected the nation of Israel as His people and replaced Israel with the church as His people. Thus, the church is now the Israel of God and has inherited the blessings that God originally promised to national Israel. This meant that national Israel lost forever its rightful claim of ownership of the land that God gave to it in ancient times. If carried to its logical conclusion, this would mean that the church is the rightful owner of the land.

Dispensationalism, with its roots in the early church’s original view of eschatology, provides clear and consistent methods of interpretation—methods that will lead believers to understanding Israel’s continued place in God’s plan for the ages.

 

[Rant]

church is the rightful owner of the land.
Can you smell a purple rat?? Mystery Babylon.

 

[Rant]

MM>Dk>>I asked "Shall we discuss these in order?
No 1). to finish the transgression, I tried to make it easy for you by splitting them to one at a time, "
So would you like to answer that.

I believe that Jesus fulfilled that in His ministry. MMMMM Xpand please!~ But I smell a Rat! Is this from Daniel?? then I smell a replacement RAT!

 

[Rant]

Dan spells it out Beautiful about the last days and why the state of Israel Is hear and now >Daniel 9:24 ...'Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. A 7year old can understand these words but it seems very >very >no understandindg at ALL!

 

[Rant]

But >R3 there are people out there that talk and put you down >> Well >> what does the bible say about them>>MMMM>> Its called if they are sealed!>>> this is a very intro thread that I will do , the sealing of the church in the Dis>of Grace “For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.”

 

[David Kent]

Dispensationalism, with its roots in the early church’s original view of eschatology, provides clear and consistent methods of interpretation—methods that will lead believers to understanding Israel’s continued place in God’s plan for the ages.

That is an utter lie, the early church taught nothing like it. Dispensationalism, was a development of the Jesuit futurist teaching began by Cardinals Belamine and Ribera. History shows that.

The early church writers mostly taught the same, That the Roman empire and Emperor were the let and hindrance in 2 Thessalonians. They said when they were removed Rome would spit into ten kingdoms and from one of those, Antichrist would rise and reign for 3½ years and then would come the millenium. Therefore they were historicist in their teaching. One one that I have discovered separated the 70th week from the remainder.

They also mostly taught that in Revelation, the temple referred to the Church and Jews to Christians. Tertullian, for instance wrote that the 144,000 were Christian virgins. Therefor they quite correctly took a symbolic understanding of Revelation.

 

[David Kent]

Dan spells it out Beautiful about the last days and why the state of Israel Is hear and now >Daniel 9:24 ...'Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. A 7year old can understand these words but it seems very >very >no understandindg at ALL!

Obviously you don't understand. The prophecy is mainly about the ministry of Christ. 69 weeks to His Baptism and one week of His ministry, Christ was the Most Holy who was anointed at His Baptism. Nothing in it refers to Antichrist.

 

[robycop3]

Oh dear, you are at your old rant again without answering my questions.

And I'm gonna KEEP making that old rant til the prets admit their doctrine is false. I mbelieve it's quite-obvious they can't PROVE it, so, if they're Christians, they need to admit it's false.

But the People of the Price who would come and the AOD were not part of the determined seventy weeks, but were the result of those events. The important part of the seventy weeks and were those 6 determined events, but you have failed to answer.

Well, actually, I failed to answer TO YOUR SATISFACTION.

I said all six points which were determined for the seventy weeks were fulfilled in Christ. You picked out two of those and disagree on one and partially agree on another but have evaded answering the other four.
So let us try again.

I asked "Shall we discuss these in order?
No 1). to finish the transgression, I tried to make it easy for you by splitting them to one at a time, "
So would you like to answer that.

I believe that Jesus fulfilled that in His ministry.

He finished the system of sacrifices for transgression by His one-time, once-for-all sacrifice of HIMSELF. As Jesus is also God, there could be no greater sacrifice than His own death.
But transgression still goes on. However, we don't hafta sacrifice lambs any moreto atone for sin.The lamb of God completely fulfilled the sacrifice requirement for all time. OUR part is to BELIEVE that fact & come to Jesus in repentance, belief, & submission.

The phrase "finish the transgression" isn't too clear. What Jesus provided is FINAL forgiveness of transgression.

 

[robycop3]

Wolf in sheep's clothing eh?

You say that Titus was not the prince to come. He did come and his people, the Roman soldiers did destroy the temple and make it desolate. These armies were the AOD, they made the city and temple desolate and before they destroyed it they sacrificed to their standards in the Holy Place.

No, the AOD will be committed by the 'antichrist' when he enters the temple the Jews will build in Jerusalem, with his deputy the false prophet, where they'll set up his statue, which the FP will supernaturally cause to speak. there, the AC will declare himself to be God. THAT'S THE AOD! Titus did no such thing. He worshipped the Roman pantheon of gods/goddesses, and, as you admit, did NOT want the temple destroyed. But GOD did, & thus, the soldiers pulled it down.

Luke 21:20 ¶ And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

Josephus in his chapter "A brief history of Jerusalem" said there were two desolations of the city. First by Nebuchadnezzar and the second by Titus.

The Romans thought there was treasure in tunnels under Jerusalem. I watched a TV programme recently that showed some people who still thought there was, entering some areas of the tunnels that were forbidden by the authorities.

Professors from Hebrew University illegally entered those tunnels as well, including some under the Dome of the Rock. They now believe the location of the temple was BESIDE the Dome, not where the Dome sits.

But the desolation of J was NOT the AOD. Do not forget 2 Thess. 2:3-4 and rev. 13, which go hand-in-hand.

Where did you get that gem from? Venus being a rogue planet? The planets were placed there perfectly by God at creation.

From Immanuel Velikovsky's [y]Worlds In Collision[/i], among other sources. And don't forget about the sun's temporarily reversing its course for Hezekiah (2 Kings 20:8-11) or the sun & moon staying in place for Joshua (Joshua 10) these events were recorded WORLDWIDE, not just in Scripture. THOSE EVENTS ACTUALLY HAPPENED! And don't forget the deep=rooted fear of Venus, Mars, & of comets found in many old cultures.

 

[robycop3]

That is an utter lie, the early church taught nothing like it. Dispensationalism, was a development of the Jesuit futurist teaching began by Cardinals Belamine and Ribera. History shows that.

The early church writers mostly taught the same, That the Roman empire and Emperor were the let and hindrance in 2 Thessalonians. They said when they were removed Rome would spit into ten kingdoms and from one of those, Antichrist would rise and reign for 3½ years and then would come the millenium. Therefore they were historicist in their teaching. One one that I have discovered separated the 70th week from the remainder.

They also mostly taught that in Revelation, the temple referred to the Church and Jews to Christians. Tertullian, for instance wrote that the 144,000 were Christian virgins. Therefor they quite correctly took a symbolic understanding of Revelation.

The 144K will be ISRAELIS, not all Jews. The Jews are only the tribes of Judah, Benjamin, & Levi. While all Jews are Israelis, not all Israelis are Jews.

 

[robycop3]

We're getting away from the fact that preterism is false.

 

[David Kent]

No, the AOD will be committed by the 'antichrist' when he enters the temple the Jews will build in Jerusalem, with his deputy the false prophet, where they'll set up his statue, which the FP will supernaturally cause to speak. there, the AC will declare himself to be God. THAT'S THE AOD! Titus did no such thing. He worshipped the Roman pantheon of gods/goddesses, and, as you admit, did NOT want the temple destroyed. But GOD did, & thus, the soldiers pulled it down.



Professors from Hebrew University illegally entered those tunnels as well, including some under the Dome of the Rock. They now believe the location of the temple was BESIDE the Dome, not where the Dome sits.

But the desolation of J was NOT the AOD. Do not forget 2 Thess. 2:3-4 and rev. 13, which go hand-in-hand.



From Immanuel Velikovsky's [y]Worlds In Collision[/i], among other sources. And don't forget about the sun's temporarily reversing its course for Hezekiah (2 Kings 20:8-11) or the sun & moon staying in place for Joshua (Joshua 10) these events were recorded WORLDWIDE, not just in Scripture. THOSE EVENTS ACTUALLY HAPPENED! And don't forget the deep=rooted fear of Venus, Mars, & of comets found in many old cultures.

Scripture doesn't say that the sun altered its course, it said the shadow on the sundial went back. That could have been by deflection of light. Scripture doesn't say anything else..

 

[Rant]

Luv>IT!

 

[robycop3]

Scripture doesn't say that the sun altered its course, it said the shadow on the sundial went back. That could have been by deflection of light. Scripture doesn't say anything else..

Don't be silly. That event was recorded ALL OVER THE WORLD. The Greek legend of Phaeton came from it. The Pawnee Indiens have a legend about the sun's starting to rise, but saw a hare waiting to snare it, so the sun retreated til the hare got tireda waiting & left. Then the sun resumed its regular course. The Chinese have a legend about a long night. I'm sure there are more if one wantsta find'em.

 

[David Kent]

No, the AOD will be committed by the 'antichrist' when he enters the temple the Jews will build in Jerusalem, with his deputy the false prophet, where they'll set up his statue, which the FP will supernaturally cause to speak. there, the AC will declare himself to be God. THAT'S THE AOD! Titus did no such thing. He worshipped the Roman pantheon of gods/goddesses, and, as you admit, did NOT want the temple destroyed. But GOD did, & thus, the soldiers pulled it down.

Oh dear you are confused. Yes that is what the Angel said, "The people of the Prince that would come would destroy the temple" Fulfilled literally, to the letter

The 144K will be ISRAELIS, not all Jews. The Jews are only the tribes of Judah, Benjamin, & Levi. While all Jews are Israelis, not all Israelis are Jews.

Scripture says Jews. But scripture also says Revelation is signified, ie figurative,. Lose sight of that and you have lost the plot.. The ECF got it right, you have got it ALL wrong.

We're getting away from the fact that preterism is false.

I don't agree with preterism but futurism is far worse. It is all imagination gone wild on some false idea as to what would happen in the future, remember the Jews got it all wrong when understanding prophecies of Jesus and his kingdom. Very few prophecies in the OT were completely fulfilled other than symbolically. One that was is Daniel 11 and you don't take it as such, Another is Daniel 9 which you add to to support your preconceived ideas.

 

[David Kent]

Don't be silly. That event was recorded ALL OVER THE WORLD. The Greek legend of Phaeton came from it. The Pawnee Indiens have a legend about the sun's starting to rise, but saw a hare waiting to snare it, so the sun retreated til the hare got tireda waiting & left. Then the sun resumed its regular course. The Chinese have a legend about a long night. I'm sure there are more if one wantsta find'em.

Maybe but there are legends all around the world regularly. Egypt was full of them. Of course it was only on the land of Israel.

2 Chronicles 32:31 Howbeit in the business of the ambassadors of the princes of Babylon, who sent unto him to enquire of the wonder that was done in the land,

In the Land, the land of Israel. If it was worldwide, they wouldn't have gone to Jerusalem to see it.

 

[Yeshua1]

Obviously you don't understand. The prophecy is mainly about the ministry of Christ. 69 weeks to His Baptism and one week of His ministry, Christ was the Most Holy who was anointed at His Baptism. Nothing in it refers to Antichrist.

Are you a historical premil, as I am, a partial. or full preterist?