The Wise Men

[David Kent]

When did the wise men visit Jesus?

When Jesus was 8 days old he was circumcised.

When he was 40 days old He was presented to the Lord in Jerusalem.

Then the family returned to Nazareth. Luke 2-39

The wise men came to Bethlehem but did not return to Jerusalem. Joseph, Mary and Jesus went to Egypt till Herod died then J,M & J returned to Nazareth. Matthew 2 1-16.

So how do these two accounts fit together? Did the family return to Bethlehem after The Luke account?

 

[Deacon]

According to the accounts provided:

1. The magi came after the birth of Jesus
2. Mary and Joseph stayed in Bethlehem for at least 40 days after the birth, the time of purification. (Leviticus 12:1–8, Luke 2:22-23)
3. Mary and Joseph offered pigeons at the purification ritual indicating they were among the poor so the magi probably hadn’t arrived yet.
4. The timing is uncertain, particularly in light of Luke 2:39 “And when they had performed everything according to the Law of the Lord, they returned into Galilee, to their own town of Nazareth.”
5. Herod killed children two years of age and under (Matthew 2:16), indicating some time may have passed.
6. The magi’s gifts probably financed the trip to Egypt.

Rob

 

[InTheLight]

I wonder why the spiritually dead Magi sought out Jesus? Walking corpses that came to worship Jesus.

 

[Jerome]

Then the family returned to Nazareth. Luke 1-39

I presume you mean 2:39?

When did the wise men visit Jesus?

Chronology ruling issued by Calvin:

1. Jesus born in Bethlehem

2. Magi visit Herod, then newborn* Jesus in Bethlehem, then go home

3. Joseph and Mary present Jesus in Jerusalem

4. Then they go to Egypt

*Calvin declares: "God brought Magi from Chaldea, to come to the land of Judea, for the purpose of adoring Christ, in the stable where he lay"

 

[TCassidy]

I wonder why the spiritually dead Magi sought out Jesus? Walking corpses that came to worship Jesus.

How do you know they were spiritually dead? Daniel preached to their forefathers and such churches, descended from Daniel, still exist in that part of the world today.

Daniel preached the coming of Messiah and the signs to be recognized regarding His coming. These gentiles understood those signs and anticipated His coming and traveled to meet Him. The Jews, living right next door, did not recognize Him or the signs of His advent.

Today the name given is ‘Chaldean’ based on the Magi kings who were believed by some to have come from what once had been the land of the Chaldean, to Bethlehem. (See article by Simo Parpola, (2004). "National and Ethnic Identity in the Neo-Assyrian Empire and Assyrian Identity in Post-Empire Times." Journal of Assyrian Academic Studies. 18 (2): 22.)

 

[InTheLight]

How do you know they were spiritually dead? Daniel preached to their forefathers and such churches, descended from Daniel, still exist in that part of the world today.

Daniel preached the coming of Messiah and the signs to be recognized regarding His coming. These gentiles understood those signs and anticipated His coming and traveled to meet Him. The Jews, living right next door, did not recognize Him or the signs of His advent.

Today the name given is ‘Chaldean’ based on the Magi kings who were believed by some to have come from what once had been the land of the Chaldean, to Bethlehem. (See article by Simo Parpola, (2004). "National and Ethnic Identity in the Neo-Assyrian Empire and Assyrian Identity in Post-Empire Times." Journal of Assyrian Academic Studies. 18 (2): 22.)

Question begging: They must have been regenerated because they were seeking Christ.

Just like the Ethiopian eunuch, the Roman Centurion, Lydia, Cornelius, etc.

Just make assumptions to make your theology fit the scripture.

 

[Yeshua1]

When did the wise men visit Jesus?

When Jesus was 8 days old he was circumcised.

When he was 40 days old He was presented to the Lord in Jerusalem.

Then the family returned to Nazareth. Luke 1-39

The wise men came to Bethlehem but did not return to Jerusalem. Joseph, Mary and Jesus went to Egypt till Herod died then J,M & J returned to Nazareth. Matthew 2 1-16.

So how do these two accounts fit together? Did the family return to Bethlehem after The Luke account?

Jesus would have been a small child, 1-2 years old.

 

[TCassidy]

Just make assumptions to make your theology fit the scripture.

So you know nothing about the Caldean Christians? Or are you questioning the salvation of hundreds of thousands of Christians just so your invalid assumption doesn't look so foolish?

 

[Jerome]

Jesus would have been a small child, 1-2 years old.

Why?

 

[David Kent]

I presume you meant 2:39?

Yes I did, too late to edit it now.

I think I disagree with Calvin on this point. I'm not saying he is wrong, just that I don't think he is correct.
If Jesus was circumcised on the eighth day, and he was presented to the Lord on the 40th Day, then they only had 32 days to go to Egypt and wait for Herod's death then return to Jerusalem.

• Matthew 2:22 But when he heard that Archelaus did reign in Judaea in the room of his father Herod, he was afraid to go thither: notwithstanding, being warned of God in a dream, he turned aside into the parts of Galilee:

I may have got it wrong but I think I read that after the death of Herod, Archelaus had to go tho Rome before he could claim the kingdom. Herod asked the wise men when they first saw the star, and when he was mocked by the wise men he ordered all children under the age of two to be put to death. If they said "Nearly two years" they could have come from a land more distant than Chaldea, perhaps China."

So here is my suggestion, After day 40, they returned to Nazareth, then for some reason they returned to Bethlehem then the wise men and the events described in Matthew.

The problem I have with that is that Herod asked where the Messiah was to be born and that Matt says they returned from Egypt to Nazareth.

Joseph and family were refugees and we see on TV today that refugees mainly travel on foot, except when aided by charities, Govts etc. I don't know how long it would take the family to walk to Egypt and back and in between wait for "They which sort the young child's life" to die.

 

[David Kent]

Why?

Why not?

 

[InTheLight]

So you know nothing about the Caldean Christians? Or are you questioning the salvation of hundreds of thousands of Christians just so your invalid assumption doesn't look so foolish?

Nice try. Not playing.

 

[TCassidy]

Nice try. Not playing.

Can't support your wrong assumption? I thought not.

 

[David Kent]

*Calvin declares: "God brought Magi from Chaldea, to come to the land of Judea, for the purpose of adoring Christ, in the stable where he lay"

The scriptures do not mention a stable and when the wise men came to Jesus he was in a house. The scripture just says that Mary laid Jesus in a manger, it may have been a manger in the open air.
When my youngest daughter was about 6, we saw a manger in a field and pointed it out to her, and she said "Did Mary have to climb up there to lay Jesus in the manger?" (It was rather a high one.)

 

[Revmitchell]

The manger Jesus was laid in was at "the tower of the flock" (Migdal Edar)Micah 4:8

Given the distance the Magi traveled it is very possible Jesus was two years old when they finally arrived.

 

[Rob_BW]

Joseph and family were refugees and we see on TV today that refugees mainly travel on foot, except when aided by charities, Govts etc. I don't know how long it would take the family to walk to Egypt and back and in between wait for "They which sort the young child's life" to die.

Is that the futural-televisional form of interpretation?

If so I'm saying they took a boat to Egypt. I always see refugees in boats on my television.

 

[Jerome]

Jesus would have been a small child, 1-2 years old.

Herod asked the wise men when they first saw the star, and when he was mocked by the wise men he ordered all children under the age of two to be put to death. If they said "Nearly two years" they could have come from a land more distant than Chaldea, perhaps China.

Given the distance the Magi traveled it is very possible Jesus was two years old when they finally arrived.

Calvin:

"a frivolous argument, on which those persons rest, who argue, that Christ was two years old when he was worshipped by the Magi, because, according to the time when the star appeared, Herod slew the children who were a little below two years old. Such persons take for granted, without any proper ground, that the star did not appear till after that the Virgin had brought forth her child. It is far more probable, that they had been warned early, and that they undertook the journey close upon the time of the birth of Christ, that they might see the child when lately born, in the cradle, or in his mother’s lap. It is a very childish imagination that, because they came from an unknown country, and almost from another world, they had spent about two years on the road. The conjectures stated by Osiander are too absurd to need refutation."

 

[Revmitchell]

Calvin:

"a frivolous argument, on which those persons rest, who argue, that Christ was two years old when he was worshipped by the Magi, because, according to the time when the star appeared, Herod slew the children who were a little below two years old. Such persons take for granted, without any proper ground, that the star did not appear till after that the Virgin had brought forth her child. It is far more probable, that they had been warned early, and that they undertook the journey close upon the time of the birth of Christ, that they might see the child when lately born, in the cradle, or in his mother’s lap. It is a very childish imagination that, because they came from an unknown country, and almost from another world, they had spent about two years on the road. The conjectures stated by Osiander are too absurd to need refutation."

Calvin was wrong. I neither take that for granted nor do I believe it. Its not necessary to. However, Calvinists telling people what they believe is not surprising.

 

[David Kent]

Calvin:

"a frivolous argument, on which those persons rest, who argue, that Christ was two years old when he was worshipped by the Magi, because, according to the time when the star appeared, Herod slew the children who were a little below two years old. Such persons take for granted, without any proper ground, that the star did not appear till after that the Virgin had brought forth her child. It is far more probable, that they had been warned early, and that they undertook the journey close upon the time of the birth of Christ, that they might see the child when lately born, in the cradle, or in his mother’s lap. It is a very childish imagination that, because they came from an unknown country, and almost from another world, they had spent about two years on the road. The conjectures stated by Osiander are too absurd to need refutation."

I don't agree with Calvin here. There is no proper ground of believing when the star appeared, we only have the scripture.

 

[David Kent]

Is that the futural-televisional form of interpretation?

If so I'm saying they took a boat to Egypt. I always see refugees in boats on my television.

In ww2 we saw photos of men women and children refugees walking in the opposite direction from the troops.

In modern times admittedly many came in boats to Europe and then walked. One man said he had walked from Afganistan to Calais in France. We have seen multitudes walking with their young in their arms and the old on their backs. Some even carried their aged in wheelbarrows.

I am not saying they walked, and Mary may have rode on an ass as cards and posters usually show.

But I think it quite possible that they walked.

We don't even know when Jesus was born, usual date given is 4 BC. Others that it was 6 BC, some, 8 BC and they all give evidence which they say proves their point. One even gives 2 BC.

The accepted date given for the death of Herod is 4 BC, I believe, but I don't go a bundle on accepted dates.