The Wise Men

[Deacon]

Here's a book I've recommended a few times

Jesus Through Middle Eastern Eyes, Cultural Studies in the Gospels
By Kenneth E. Bailey
Paperback: 443 pages
IVP Academic (January 11, 2008)

The late Kenneth Bailey provided a fascinating book on the life of Jesus in the gospels.

He grasps your attention in the early pages of the book by examining the birth of Jesus.
After reading his account, you’ll shake your head at the inaccuracies we readily accept in our traditional Christmas pageants.

“No room in the Inn”?
The word for “inn” used by Luke in his gospel (10:34) was "πανδοχεῖον" [pan-dokk-i’-on]. It was an “inn” where the Samaritan left the stricken man.
The Greek word used in the story of Jesus birth is “καταλύματι” [kat-al’-oo-mah-ti].
It is only (mis-)translated once as “inn” in Luke (2:7).
The same word is also used in Mark 14:14 and Luke 22:11 and translated as guest room.
“There was no room in the guest room.”

If the guest room was full, Joseph and Mary would have stayed with the homes owner in their communal family living room.
Typically, the family animals would are confined at one end of the room with a manger separating the animals from the family.

I'll have to look through it again to see if he has any insights regarding the timing of the magi.

Rob

 

[InTheLight]

So you know nothing about the Caldean Christians?

Caldeans, Chaldeans (which is it?)...no, don't know much about them. I do know that astrologers, people that search the stars for answers to life questions are not typically believers in the monotheistic God of Israel. They are typically pagans. But, if you need to shoehorn these people into the regenerated column so it fits your theology, I understand.

Or are you questioning the salvation of hundreds of thousands of Christians just so your invalid assumption doesn't look so foolish?

Pathetic. I say I think the Magi astrologers were unregenerate people, unregenerate being the default position of people at birth, the position that the majority of people that ever lived are in, and you make an assumption that they are regenerated. And then you accuse me of making foolish assumptions.

To quote someone on BB, "show me where I said I doubted the salvation of hundreds of thousands of Christians".

 

[TCassidy]

The accepted date given for the death of Herod is 4 BC, I believe, but I don't go a bundle on accepted dates.

It is one of those "depends on who you ask" questions.

The date of 4 BC comes primarily from Josephus who says he died after a lunar eclipse. But others say as late as 1 AD.

An eclipse did take place on March 13, 4 BC, about a month before Passover, and this eclipse may have been the one referred to by Josephus.

However there were other eclipses during this same period, in 5 BC and two in 1 BC.

The 4 BC date is augmented by his sons dating their rule from 4 BC, but Herod suffered from a terrible illness for a long time prior to his death, and his sons may have begun their rule while he was still alive, though unable to rule in his own right.

1 AD seems to fit the biblical chronology a bit better, but it really doesn't make much difference. It is not a hill I am willing to die on.

 

[TCassidy]

Caldeans, Chaldeans (which is it?).

That would depend on how you transliterate ܟܠܕܝܐ. How would you transliterate it?

people that search the stars for answers to life questions are not typically believers in the monotheistic God of Israel

So all people who looked for the Star leading to the Christ Child were pagans?

 

[Yeshua1]

Why?

I think that the term used there was not for baby, but for a small child.

 

[robycop3]

I believe Jesus was about 2 when the magi came. And they might've seen the same star that was over Bethoehem when Jesus was born. They might've seen it rise in the east & figured at a certain time of night, it was over Jesus.

Matt. 2:7 Then Herod, when he had secretly called the wise men, determined from them what time the star appeared.

Remember, the Chaldeans were astronomers and astrologers. They knew the motions of the planets, etc. The star involved in all this could well have been a nova or supernova, which the Chaldeans woulda noticed. (Novae often last 2 or more years.) Or, it coulda been something other than a star, sent by God as a guide.

And most likely, the magi traveled on camels, which haven't set too many land speed records, so they easily coulda taken two years.[/COLOR]

 

[Jerome]

1-2 years old.

Why?

I think that the term used there was not for baby, but for a small child.

That word is used in Luke 1:59 (the infant John circumcised), Luke 2:17 (the shepherds' report), and Luke 2:21 (the infant Jesus circumcised).

 

[Reynolds]

Question begging: They must have been regenerated because they were seeking Christ.

Just like the Ethiopian eunuch, the Roman Centurion, Lydia, Cornelius, etc.

Just make assumptions to make your theology fit the scripture.

They sought Him. They found Him.

 

[InTheLight]

So all people who looked for the Star leading to the Christ Child were pagans?

<sarcasm>Why yes, of course that is exactly what I said.</sarcasm>

BTW, since you are alleging there were others besides the Magi, what were all of these people's names?

 

[David Kent]

Not all magi were Chaldeans. The usurper who took the throne of Persia, after Cambyses, was a magi, and he was a Mede. Darius defeated him after a few months. .

Remember, the Chaldeans were astronomers and astrologers. They knew the motions of the planets, etc.

So were the Eyptians and probably the Chinese and Solomon.

I am not sure what the date of the death of Herod has to do with the actual birth of Jesus, as all we know, as far as I can see is that he was born shortly before Herod died, but we are not told how much before as far as I know. So we don't know how long Jesus was in Egypt.

 

[TCassidy]

<sarcasm>Why yes, of course that is exactly what I said.</sarcasm>

BTW, since you are alleging there were others besides the Magi, what were all of these people's names?

So, you think the stable was crowded and Joseph had to sell tickets to control the crowd?

Your problem is that you make a stupid assumption and when it is pointed out to you that it was a stupid assumption you refuse to own it with the old "I didn't say that" whimper.

 

[InTheLight]

So, you think the stable was crowded and Joseph had to sell tickets to control the crowd?

No, I did not think the stable was crowed (sic). I said nothing about the stable. It's likely the Magi never saw the Christ child inside a stable.

Your problem is that you make a stupid assumption and when it is pointed out to you that it was a stupid assumption you refuse to own it with the old "I didn't say that" whimper.

My assumption was that the Magi were not regenerated. The majority of people on earth are not regenerated. I make an assumption that astrologers are not regenerated. I believe I am making a safe assumption. It is not a stupid assumption.

My assumption did not "question the salvation of hundreds and thousands of Christians" as you asserted. If you want a stupid assumption, there it is.

You may now deflect and go off on another tangent regarding something I didn't say.

 

[Reynolds]

No, I did not think the stable was crowed (sic). I said nothing about the stable. It's likely the Magi never saw the Christ child inside a stable.



My assumption was that the Magi were not regenerated. The majority of people on earth are not regenerated. I make an assumption that astrologers are not regenerated. I believe I am making a safe assumption. It is not a stupid assumption.

My assumption did not "question the salvation of hundreds and thousands of Christians" as you asserted. If you want a stupid assumption, there it is.

You may now deflect and go off on another tangent regarding something I didn't say.

The best evidence would show Daniel practiced astrology.

 

[TCassidy]

My assumption was that the Magi were not regenerated.

Yes. Wrong assumption.

The majority of people on earth are not regenerated.

The majority of the people on earth did not benefit from Daniel's preaching. The majority of people on earth do not have a Messianic tradition that dates back over 2500 years.

I make an assumption that astrologers are not regenerated.

Perhaps you don't know what an astrologer was, at that time. Are you committing an anachronistic error of trying to apply modern meaning to an ancient word?

By the way, some of your confusion might be alleviated by reading "The Stars Speak: Astronomy in the Bible" by Dr. Stewart Custer, for over 40 years professor of Bible, theology, and Greek at Bob Jones University.

My assumption did not "question the salvation of hundreds and thousands of Christians" as you asserted.

So you are retracting your claim that they, and presumably the rest of the people in their Christian tradition, are lost? Good. Progress.

If you want a stupid assumption, there it is.

Yes, I know your assumption was stupid. I already said so.

You may now deflect and go off on another tangent regarding something I didn't say.

Are you, once again, refusing to own your fallacious thesis?

 

[Deacon]

The Gospel of Matthew may be a very Jewish book but it introduces some unexpected characters, like the magi, that are not expected to be of the faith.

Matthew starts out with four unwholesome women in the genealogies, including the Canaanite prostitute, Rahab.
A Roman, a centurion whose servant was ill was commended for displaying great faith, more than Jesus’disciples, who repeatedly are reminded that they have “little faith”.

The text tells us that the magi followed the star, searched for the King of the Jews, bowed and worshiped the Child and gave gifts of great worth.
Matthew’s implication is that the Messiah of the Jews was given not only as the Savior of the Jews but as a Savior of the world. Without the Christchild’s birth both Jew and gentile would be lost.

Rob

 

[Jerome]

Yes, except not sure exactly what you mean by unwholesome women; it's the Gentile thing that smarts in the genealogy.

The theme repeats throughout. More:

Matt 3:9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

Matt 4:12-15 he departed into Galilee....in the borders of Zabulon and Nephthalim: That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying, The land of Zabulon, and the land of Nephthalim, by the way of the sea, beyond Jordan, Galilee of the Gentiles;

Matt 8:11-12 many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven. But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Matt 10:6-7,14-15 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand....And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet. Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.

Matt. 11:21,24 It shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the day of judgment, than for you....it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee.

Matt 12:21 And in his name shall the Gentiles trust.

Matt 12:41-42 The men of Nineveh...repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here. The queen of the south...came from the uttermost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here.

Matt 15:22-28 a woman of Canaan came and cried unto him....But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me. But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs. And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table. Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt.

Matt 24:14 this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations

Matt 26:16 this gospel shall be preached in the whole world

Matt. 28:19 Go ye therefore and teach all nations

 

[Deacon]

Good list!

Yes, except not sure exactly what you mean by unwholesome women...

Tamar, guilty of incest
Rahab, the prostitute
Ruth, a Moabite
Uriah's wife (Bathsheba), an adulteress

...then there's Mary... the unwed mother...​

Rob

 

[Aaron]

Nice try. Not playing.

LOL. Which, being interpreted, meaneth, "Uncle!"

 

[Jerome]

Not sure why one would zero in on the listed women's being "unwholesome." What about the many listed men who were? Or Leah, who's not listed despite the notorious way she entered the lineage?

 

[Aaron]

Good list!
Tamar, guilty of incest
Rahab, the prostitute
Ruth, a Moabite
Uriah's wife (Bathsheba), an adulteress

...then there's Mary... the unwed mother...​

Rob

Tamar was a rape victim. So was Bathsheba, if one considers the intimidating circumstances of being summoned by the king. In the Nathan's rebuke, and in the Matthew's genealogy, David is the sinner.