Confusion on just what is PSA

[Yeshua1]

Christ was made a curse for us, that it was God's predetermined plan that he suffer and die at the hands of godless men. In context of the passage, it was the will of the Father.

The teaching that I draw from the passage is that it was the will of the Father - His predetermined plan - that Christ become flesh - become a curse for us - and suffer and die at the hands of godless men.

God the father Himself determined that to happen, correct? Did not use "middlemen", but God Himself nailed Jesus upon that Christ for our sake, and Jesus agreed to that?

 

[Yeshua1]

So it was the fairies and the pixies after all.
Fortunately, I am able to help you out here. 'Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise Him; He has put Him to grief.' 'For He who is hanged is cursed by God.' When we speak of 'the LORD' and of 'God' we obviously mean the Triune God which includes the Lord Jesus. You spoke in your post #39 of a 'covenantal righteousness.' You did not elaborate, but I certainly see Penal Substitution as being covenantal. P.S. has its origin in the Everlasting Covenant (or 'council of Redemption') before the beginning of time. 'And truly the Son of Man goes as it has been determined' (Luke 22:22). Determined when and by whom if not by the Triune God in the Everlasting Covenant? The Lord Jesus willingly came in the likeness of sinful flesh in order to became sin and a curse for us, and suffered the wrath of God towards sin that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

The Cross was from eternity past agreed upon by all of the trinity, as those against Pst seem they see Jesus as being the innocent party being violated by wrathful God!

 

[Yeshua1]

Absolutely! Christ was made sin for us but He never became a sinner.

I don't and I don't

I don't think you'll find it is. It may help you to read my post #75

Just to be absolutely clear: the Lord Jesus never sinned. Perhaps you would like to show me where I have ever said that He did?

1 Thessalonians 1:9. 'These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power.'

Please read Matthew 20:17-19. If the shedding of blood and not punishment were the issue, why did the Lord Jesus have to suffer such terrible things?

he who knew no sin became sin for us, and while upon the Cross, the Father treated Him same way all lost are, forsaken and afflicted of God!

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Christ was made a curse for us, that it was God's predetermined plan that he suffer and die at the hands of godless men. In context of the passage, it was the will of the Father.

The teaching that I draw from the passage is that it was the will of the Father - His predetermined plan - that Christ become flesh - become a curse for us - and suffer and die at the hands of godless men.

We certainly agree on this, which is a start. It was God's pre-determined plan that Christ become a curse. But we are still left with Deuteronomy 21:23: 'For He who is hanged [on a tree] is cursed by God.' This text was obviously in the mind of the Holy Spirit when He caused Peter to write, 'He Himself bore our sins in His own body on the tree.' Peter could very easily have written 'cross' instead of 'tree.' The reason he wrote 'tree' is to enforce the teaching, already made clear in Galatians 3:13, that our Lord was carrying a curse-- and it is the curse of God against sin, and 'sin is the transgression of the law' (1 John 3:4, KJV), and 'cursed is the one who does not confirm all the words of this law' (Deuteronomy 27:26). None of us keeps God's law (Romans 3:9-19; James 2:10). Therefore the curse of God is on all of us and we are all 'by nature objects of wrath' (Ephesians 2:1-3).

What is this curse of God? It is this: 'The soul that sins shall die,' and 'after this, the judgement.' What does that look like? 2 Thessalonians 1:9. 'These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power.'

But it was God's will that Christ should be 'made sin for us' (2 Corinthians 5:21). What does that mean? Isaiah 53:6 tells us: 'The LORD has laid on Him the iniquity of us all.' He is our Surety. He undertakes for us in every respect that which we cannot do for ourselves (Romans 5:6-8). All the sins of God's elect were laid upon the sinless shoulders of Christ and He bore the penalty of them on the cross, and that must include the curse, because we are told in Isaiah 53:5, the chastisement for our peace was upon Him.' How could men and women be at peace with God if His curse were still upon them? He bore the wrath of God (remember Eph.2:3) and He bore the curse of God (remember Deut. 21:23), which were not upon Him as the sinless, spotless, beloved Son, but as the sin-bearer (cf. Leviticus 16:21-22), suffering outside the camp (Hebrews 13:12).

The result of this is that Christians are made 'the righteousness of God in Him.' This is Luther's 'great exchange:' our sins and wickedness are laid upon Him and He pays the penalty and bears the wrath and the curse, and His perfect obedience and righteousness are credited to them. 'But of [God] you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God-- and righteousness and sanctification and redemption.'

 

[Yeshua1]

We certainly agree on this, which is a start. It was God's pre-determined plan that Christ become a curse. But we are still left with Deuteronomy 21:23: 'For He who is hanged [on a tree] is cursed by God.' This text was obviously in the mind of the Holy Spirit when He caused Peter to write, 'He Himself bore our sins in His own body on the tree.' Peter could very easily have written 'cross' instead of 'tree.' The reason he wrote 'tree' is to enforce the teaching, already made clear in Galatians 3:13, that our Lord was carrying a curse-- and it is the curse of God against sin, and 'sin is the transgression of the law' (1 John 3:4, KJV), and 'cursed is the one who does not confirm all the words of this law' (Deuteronomy 27:26). None of us keeps God's law (Romans 3:9-19; James 2:10). Therefore the curse of God is on all of us and we are all 'by nature objects of wrath' (Ephesians 2:1-3).

What is this curse of God? It is this: 'The soul that sins shall die,' and 'after this, the judgement.' What does that look like? 2 Thessalonians 1:9. 'These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power.'

But it was God's will that Christ should be 'made sin for us' (2 Corinthians 5:21). What does that mean? Isaiah 53:6 tells us: 'The LORD has laid on Him the iniquity of us all.' He is our Surety. He undertakes for us in every respect that which we cannot do for ourselves (Romans 5:6-8). All the sins of God's elect were laid upon the sinless shoulders of Christ and He bore the penalty of them on the cross, and that must include the curse, because we are told in Isaiah 53:5, the chastisement for our peace was upon Him.' How could men and women be at peace with God if His curse were still upon them? He bore the wrath of God (remember Eph.2:3) and He bore the curse of God (remember Deut. 21:23), which were not upon Him as the sinless, spotless, beloved Son, but as the sin-bearer (cf. Leviticus 16:21-22), suffering outside the camp (Hebrews 13:12).

The result of this is that Christians are made 'the righteousness of God in Him.' This is Luther's 'great exchange:' our sins and wickedness are laid upon Him and He pays the penalty and bears the wrath and the curse, and His perfect obedience and righteousness are credited to them. 'But of [God] you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God-- and righteousness and sanctification and redemption.'

Jesus while upon the Cross tasted what all lost sinners will forever in Hell. That is what I believed he was dealing with in the Garden,a s jesus knew that at that time, he would taste forsaken by the Father, as he took upon Himself the Cup of wrath.

 

[JonC]

God the father Himself determined that to happen, correct? Did not use "middlemen", but God Himself nailed Jesus upon that Christ for our sake, and Jesus agreed to that?

Jesus was nailed upon that cross by godless men, but this was in accordance to God's predetermined plan (Acts 3).

 

[JonC]

We certainly agree on this, which is a start. It was God's pre-determined plan that Christ become a curse. But we are still left with Deuteronomy 21:23: 'For He who is hanged [on a tree] is cursed by God.' This text was obviously in the mind of the Holy Spirit when He caused Peter to write, 'He Himself bore our sins in His own body on the tree.' Peter could very easily have written 'cross' instead of 'tree.' The reason he wrote 'tree' is to enforce the teaching, already made clear in Galatians 3:13, that our Lord was carrying a curse-- and it is the curse of God against sin, and 'sin is the transgression of the law' (1 John 3:4, KJV), and 'cursed is the one who does not confirm all the words of this law' (Deuteronomy 27:26). None of us keeps God's law (Romans 3:9-19; James 2:10). Therefore the curse of God is on all of us and we are all 'by nature objects of wrath' (Ephesians 2:1-3).

What is this curse of God? It is this: 'The soul that sins shall die,' and 'after this, the judgement.' What does that look like? 2 Thessalonians 1:9. 'These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power.'

But it was God's will that Christ should be 'made sin for us' (2 Corinthians 5:21). What does that mean? Isaiah 53:6 tells us: 'The LORD has laid on Him the iniquity of us all.' He is our Surety. He undertakes for us in every respect that which we cannot do for ourselves (Romans 5:6-8). All the sins of God's elect were laid upon the sinless shoulders of Christ and He bore the penalty of them on the cross, and that must include the curse, because we are told in Isaiah 53:5, the chastisement for our peace was upon Him.' How could men and women be at peace with God if His curse were still upon them? He bore the wrath of God (remember Eph.2:3) and He bore the curse of God (remember Deut. 21:23), which were not upon Him as the sinless, spotless, beloved Son, but as the sin-bearer (cf. Leviticus 16:21-22), suffering outside the camp (Hebrews 13:12).

The result of this is that Christians are made 'the righteousness of God in Him.' This is Luther's 'great exchange:' our sins and wickedness are laid upon Him and He pays the penalty and bears the wrath and the curse, and His perfect obedience and righteousness are credited to them. 'But of [God] you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God-- and righteousness and sanctification and redemption.'

We agree on much. We disagree, however, in that I reject the teaching God cursed Jesus. I also reject the idea that Jesus was despised or stricken by God. Scripture simply does not speak of the relationship between God and His Son in those terms.

 

[Yeshua1]

Jesus was nailed upon that cross by godless men, but this was in accordance to God's predetermined plan (Acts 3).

was that determined/caused by the Father?

 

[Martin Marprelate]

We agree on much. We disagree, however, in that I reject the teaching God cursed Jesus. I also reject the idea that Jesus was despised or stricken by God.

Well, as I have said before, I am not really trying to persuade you (though that would be nice). I leave others to my post #84 with which you are obviously unwilling or unable to interact.

Scripture simply does not speak of the relationship between God and His Son in those terms.

On the cross, I think you'll find it does.

I am finished on this subject until after Christmas, when I have another extended post to make (DV). All my children will be home this Christmas for the first time in three years so Mrs Marprelate and I shall be making them our priority for a while

 

[JonC]

was that determined/caused by the Father?

The cross was indeed predetermined by God.

 

[JonC]

Well, as I have said before, I am not really trying to persuade you (though that would be nice). I leave others to my post #84 with which you are obviously unwilling or unable to interact.

I am finished on this subject until after Christmas, when I have another extended post to make (DV). All my children will be home this Christmas for the first time in three years so Mrs Marprelate and I shall be making them our priority for a while

I didn't interact with the passages because I have in the past.

My intent here was simply to highlight an often ignored distinction (what traditionally separated the Substitution Theory of men like Luther and Aquinas from the Penal Substitution Theory of men like Calvin. Some believe it an important distinction, others one of no consequence, and still others who can't understand the difference at all.

I wish you and your family a very wonderful and blessed Christmas. Enjoy having your children home for the holidays.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

I wish you and your family a very wonderful and blessed Christmas.

You and yours too!

 

[Rebel1]

I didn't interact with the passages because I have in the past.

My intent here was simply to highlight an often ignored distinction (what traditionally separated the Substitution Theory of men like Luther and Aquinas from the Penal Substitution Theory of men like Calvin. Some believe it an important distinction, others one of no consequence, and still others who can't understand the difference at all.

I wish you and your family a very wonderful and blessed Christmas. Enjoy having your children home for the holidays.

Jon, how would you characterize your view of the atonement? Would it fit into any of the established theories?

 

[JonC]

Jon, how would you characterize your view of the atonement? Would it fit into any of the established theories?

I suppose I’d characterize my view of the atonement as a fulfilment of Genesis 3:15. A good definition of my view is Hebrews 2:9-15”

Hebrews 2:9-15 But we do see Him who was made for a little while lower than the angels, namely, Jesus, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, so that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone. For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things, and through whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to perfect the author of their salvation through sufferings. For both He who sanctifies and those who are sanctified are all from one Father; for which reason He is not ashamed to call them brethren, saying, "I WILL PROCLAIM YOUR NAME TO MY BRETHREN, IN THE MIDST OF THE CONGREGATION I WILL SING YOUR PRAISE." And again, "I WILL PUT MY TRUST IN HIM." And again, "BEHOLD, I AND THE CHILDREN WHOM GOD HAS GIVEN ME." Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself likewise also partook of the same, that through death He might render powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil, and might free those who through fear of death were subject to slavery all their lives.

In terms of an established view, it would be Christus Victor, but I even more than this the cross looks to the Kingdom.

 

[Rebel1]

I suppose I’d characterize my view of the atonement as a fulfilment of Genesis 3:15. A good definition of my view is Hebrews 2:9-15”

Hebrews 2:9-15 But we do see Him who was made for a little while lower than the angels, namely, Jesus, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, so that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone. For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things, and through whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to perfect the author of their salvation through sufferings. For both He who sanctifies and those who are sanctified are all from one Father; for which reason He is not ashamed to call them brethren, saying, "I WILL PROCLAIM YOUR NAME TO MY BRETHREN, IN THE MIDST OF THE CONGREGATION I WILL SING YOUR PRAISE." And again, "I WILL PUT MY TRUST IN HIM." And again, "BEHOLD, I AND THE CHILDREN WHOM GOD HAS GIVEN ME." Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself likewise also partook of the same, that through death He might render powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil, and might free those who through fear of death were subject to slavery all their lives.

In terms of an established view, it would be Christus Victor, but I even more than this the cross looks to the Kingdom.

I think your view and mine are very close.

I wanted to ask, have you had a personal experience of Jesus? If so, could you describe it? if you would rather respond to this via PM, I'll understand.

 

[JonC]

I think your view and mine are very close.

I wanted to ask, have you had a personal experience of Jesus? If so, could you describe it? if you would rather respond to this via PM, I'll understand.

When I was a child I had a personal experience in the form of conversion. This would be difficult for me to describe, I think because I grew up in the church. Looking back it seems that my conversion was a realization that dawned on me rather than a stark contrast that some often experience.

When I think of personal experience, however, I tend to think of experiences after salvation and walking with Him. I was living in Germany when I started to question my salvation. After some time I realized I had been saved as a child but had not been walking as I should. I was saved, but the evidence of my salvation came in the form of conviction and God’s work of discipline in my life rather than the fruits of the spirit. This put me on a path of diligent study, self-reflection, and prayer.

I’ve experienced Christ in a personal way when God revealed to me the error in my own doctrine a depth of His love that I had missed through tradition and acceptance of doctrines without understanding. I expect this will continue.

I’ve experienced Jesus in speaking to others about Him. I am a quite person who does not like to speak in front of people. But God has led me both to preach and teach. When I stand before a church I quickly realize that it is not me but Christ in me that makes this possible.

I’ve experienced Jesus in a wonderful way as I witnessed an atheist friend saved and become an active member of his church. I’ve experienced Christ in an amazing way through two friends who were dying of cancer and another who turned his life around. I experienced Christ with the salvation of my son.

I think that the most discernable way I have experienced Jesus in a personal way, however, is simply through the church as the local expression of the Body of Christ. Through my church I have seen the love, compassion and joy of Christ.

How about you?

 

[Yeshua1]

I think your view and mine are very close.

I wanted to ask, have you had a personal experience of Jesus? If so, could you describe it? if you would rather respond to this via PM, I'll understand.

Do you mean did Jesus appear to him, or speak to him in a voice?

 

[Rebel1]

Do you mean did Jesus appear to him, or speak to him in a voice?

I mean in whatever way.

 

[Rebel1]

When I was a child I had a personal experience in the form of conversion. This would be difficult for me to describe, I think because I grew up in the church. Looking back it seems that my conversion was a realization that dawned on me rather than a stark contrast that some often experience.

When I think of personal experience, however, I tend to think of experiences after salvation and walking with Him. I was living in Germany when I started to question my salvation. After some time I realized I had been saved as a child but had not been walking as I should. I was saved, but the evidence of my salvation came in the form of conviction and God’s work of discipline in my life rather than the fruits of the spirit. This put me on a path of diligent study, self-reflection, and prayer.

I’ve experienced Christ in a personal way when God revealed to me the error in my own doctrine a depth of His love that I had missed through tradition and acceptance of doctrines without understanding. I expect this will continue.

I’ve experienced Jesus in speaking to others about Him. I am a quite person who does not like to speak in front of people. But God has led me both to preach and teach. When I stand before a church I quickly realize that it is not me but Christ in me that makes this possible.

I’ve experienced Jesus in a wonderful way as I witnessed an atheist friend saved and become an active member of his church. I’ve experienced Christ in an amazing way through two friends who were dying of cancer and another who turned his life around. I experienced Christ with the salvation of my son.

I think that the most discernable way I have experienced Jesus in a personal way, however, is simply through the church as the local expression of the Body of Christ. Through my church I have seen the love, compassion and joy of Christ.

How about you?

I, too, was raised in the church and can't remember a time when I didn't believe. But after I grew up, I had a crisis of faith and very briefly became an agnostic. The early Quakers and Anabaptists brought me back to faith, and when I watched the movie Jesus of Nazareth, starring Robert Powell, it had a profound impact on me. I began in-depth study of the Bible, especially the New Testament.

Over the years, I have had a few experiences in which I knew God spoke to me, greatly helping me through extremely difficult situations. The last time this happened was when my mom died last February.

Had it not been for my study of atonement in the earliest churches, I don't know what I would have done. I could not accept penal substitution, satisfaction, or any of the other Latinized or modern atonement theories.

As much as I hold doctrine to be important, I have come to believe that actions are more important -- the way we treat others, love for God, humans, and the creation.

 

[Rebel1]

When I was a child I had a personal experience in the form of conversion. This would be difficult for me to describe, I think because I grew up in the church. Looking back it seems that my conversion was a realization that dawned on me rather than a stark contrast that some often experience.

When I think of personal experience, however, I tend to think of experiences after salvation and walking with Him. I was living in Germany when I started to question my salvation. After some time I realized I had been saved as a child but had not been walking as I should. I was saved, but the evidence of my salvation came in the form of conviction and God’s work of discipline in my life rather than the fruits of the spirit. This put me on a path of diligent study, self-reflection, and prayer.

I’ve experienced Christ in a personal way when God revealed to me the error in my own doctrine a depth of His love that I had missed through tradition and acceptance of doctrines without understanding. I expect this will continue.

I’ve experienced Jesus in speaking to others about Him. I am a quite person who does not like to speak in front of people. But God has led me both to preach and teach. When I stand before a church I quickly realize that it is not me but Christ in me that makes this possible.

I’ve experienced Jesus in a wonderful way as I witnessed an atheist friend saved and become an active member of his church. I’ve experienced Christ in an amazing way through two friends who were dying of cancer and another who turned his life around. I experienced Christ with the salvation of my son.

I think that the most discernable way I have experienced Jesus in a personal way, however, is simply through the church as the local expression of the Body of Christ. Through my church I have seen the love, compassion and joy of Christ.

How about you?

How do you feel about the new 2000 BF&M of the SBC?