Featured The Righteousness of the Scribes and Pharisees

First off, I am pretty sure that you are misreading Kyredneck's point. But I will let him respond to that, if he is so inclined.

But, while agreeing to much of what you write, I do take issue with both your particular division of the Law three ways and - most importantly - in insisting that the Decalogue is valid for today.

It is interesting that the New Testament greatly amplifies the scope of nine of the Ten Laws. Both in the Gospels and in the Epistles of John we can find these amplifications. If need be I can quote them.

But the Law concerning the keeping of the Sabbath is not. Instead we have verses like Col. 2:16

Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath.

and Romans 14:6

The one who observes the day, observes it in honor of the Lord. The one who eats, eats in honor of the Lord, since he gives thanks to God, while the one who abstains, abstains in honor of the Lord and gives thanks to God.

I could also cite lengthy passages from Hebrews to the same effect.

The point is that the Sabbath Law was fulfilled in Christ. He is our Sabbath rest. It is telling that those who try to "upgrade" the Sabbath commandment for today modify the demands of this commandment, changing both the actual day and the nature of the work proscribed - all without any explicit Scriptural warrant.

The point in all this is that we do not need to observe the Sabbath law. As non-Jews, it was never intended for us. It was an eschatological and Messianic signpost and prophecy for the Jews and for them only, pointing to Messiah as their rest and ours.

And the other nine, as amplified by the New Testament - and our Spirit-led awareness - we obey by the grace of Christ. Certainly failing at times, but always coming back to the High Priest of our confession, Christ Jesus.

 

Indeed it is soTom:

Hebrews 4:9 There remaineth therefore a rest (Grk. sabbatismos - sabbath keeping) to the people of God.

We rest in the finished work of Jesus Christ (high priest after the order of Melchizedek).

10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

I love the irony of verse 11 - we should "labor" to enter into His "rest".

HankD

 

I asked Kyredneck what he believes and he refused to answer. He peppered me with a scripture quiz, as though what I believe somehow will define what he believes. I do not know if he believes in salvation by works or not. He refused to answer me plainly. The only thing I know is that he rejects Sola Fide. Other than that, it would be good to know what he believes on the subject of salvation, works, and judgment so I can determine whether I agree or disagree with him.

As to the subject of your quoted blog post, it is very important. How are we made acceptable to the Father? How can we be more righteous than the Pharisees? Is ours an alien righteousness or does our faith become our righteousness? Are we justified by faith or not? Do we have something to brag about or do we brag about what Christ has done on our behalf? These are not frivolous questions. They deserve a full and complete vetting.

 

I stand with Martin on this. This is not a Sabbath thread.

 

The Sabbath was an integral part of the righteousness resulting from the keeping of the law.

The pharisees made accusation against Christ for allowing the breaking of the sabbath.

Matthew 12:2 But when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto him, Behold, thy disciples do that which is not lawful to do upon the sabbath day.

HankD

 

Hank,

I get that but that is incidental to the point Martin is trying to make. What does it mean that our righteousness must exceed that of the Pharisees? See the questions I asked in post #7. There is a heretical doctrine out there called the New Perspective on Paul. It guts the doctrine of justification by faith. It is dangerous and antithetical to Christianity. It was made possible by perverting the doctrine of imputation. That is why this thread is one of the more important threads I have participated in on the BB.

 

OK, just interjecting into the debate that the Sabbath and its keeping (Sabbath) makes up a great deal of the weightier matters of the Torah and the righteousness thereof.

So much so that it became one of the pharisees reasons for His crucifixion.

John 5:16 And therefore did the Jews persecute Jesus, and sought to slay him, because he had done these things on the sabbath day.

HankD

 

The Rest in view has nothing to do with the Sabbath, but speaks of the Promise of God in regards to His People. The "rest" promised to Israel was basically the Land they would dwell in and the benefits being there offered.

The Rest in view in Hebrews, which is contrasted with the "rest" those who rebelled entered not into (because they were unbelievers), speaks of salvation in Christ.

The "Gospel" heard by Israel in the wilderness was this rest, which was a figure of our ultimate "rest" in the new heavens and earth.

Its pretty important to recognize this as being directed at a people (Hebrews), not to Christians, as though Christians are told to "labor" to enter into the Rest of God. The Writer calls on his people, Israel, as he does numerous times in the Book, to look at the example of unbelief which caused their (the Writer and his audience) People to fail to enter into that rest. He proposes, not works, but Faith. That is the key element in Israel's failure to enter into the Old Testament figure for the Rest of God.


God bless.

 

I agree with your point, but wanted to ask you if you distinguish between men during Christ's ministry and believers in this Age. While we are not saved through the works of the Law I take the position we are still bound to the consistent principles taught by the Law (i.e., we still cannot lie, steal, commit murder, etc.), and that as we are sanctified hopefully we "establish the Law" in our own lives, so to speak.

Consider:


Ezekiel 36:27
King James Version (KJV)

27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.


Your thoughts?


God bless.

 

"the rest" here in verse 4:9 definitely has a relationship to the OC 7th day sabbath by way of foreshadowing.

The Greek for "the rest" here in 4:9 is σαββατισμὸς (sabbatismos - sabbath keeping) by way of using the root σάββατον (sabbaton) this verse clearly bonding it with the 7th day sabbath of God. True of the "rest" of that sabbath day but the sabbath day of the OC nonetheless correlating it with the keeping of the NC seventh day - resting in the finished work of Jesus Christ.

The NIV uses the sabbatismos word thus:

NIV There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God;

verse 4 establishes the bond:

Hebrews 4:4 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.


HankD

 

One aspect that needs to be remembered is Romans 2:

12For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; 13for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. 14For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.
​

The Decalogue is inescapable, even in heathen as Romans states

 

Are you sure about this? Hebrews, in fact, is addressed to believers, though - as in all NT epistles - there is the understanding that unbelievers are mixed in. There are many verses that show Christians are being addressed for the most part.

He writes to "holy brethren" (3:1) who have saving faith (10:39). He speaks of his readership as having "things that accompany salvation".

"But, beloved, we are convinced of better things concerning you, and things that accompany salvation, though are speaking in this way." (Hebrews 6:9).

The "laboring" here is in no way related to working for salvation but it is merely striving with what God has already planted in the us. It is the "working out our salvation with fear and trembling", as Paul wrote in Philippians.

 

Not really any different from this:


John 3:14
King James Version (KJV)

14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:


The serpent is a figure, not the reality.

Furthermore, it was not a seventh day rest promised to Israel, but rest associated with receiving the promises of God, specifically, entering into the land promised them. In regards to The Rest...


Hebrews 4
King James Version (KJV)

1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.


He is speaking to his people, saying essentially, "Be very fearful that, like those who did not receive rest in the wilderness, you too should fail to enter into the Rest I am speaking about."


2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.


"Those of us who have believed have entered into His Rest."

And we know he is not referring to the Sabbath, and we know he is not referring to entering Canaan.


4 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.

5 And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest.

Just as God rested when the work was done, even so we rest, because the Work is done. Again, think about what happened to those who rebelled in the wilderness."


6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:

"Seeing there are those who have not yet entered into His Rest, remember the example: those who did not enter into rest did not enter because of unbelief...don't make the same mistake."

We still have no correlation between God's Rest and the earthly seventh day rest, apart from the example which centers on rest, not a day of the week.

He goes on to drive home his point, "Don't be unbelieving:"


7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.



8 For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.


This is speaking of Joshua, not the Lord. The point is "If the rest received by those who entered the land (with Joshua) was the Rest that it was a figure of, which I (the Writer) use as an example, then we would not have been told of another day, or in other words, we would not have received God's promises afterward. Christ is the completion, the fulfillment of those promises (See Hebrews 11:13; 39-40)."


9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.


To Israel, that is. The "therefore" refers to what he just stated, his point being...entering Canaan, which is the rest in my example in Chapter Three, was not the Rest I speak of to you (my brethren of Israel), that Rest is in Jesus Christ, the One Who finished the work."

That there remains a rest is tied to his point that entering into rest (entering Canaan) was not the end of the story, or the total of God's promises. It can be applied individually, as in, there are still Jews who must be saved, but the primary context simply contrasts that rest with Rest in Christ.


10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.


Again, that the example speaks not of the seventh day Sabbath, but simply makes the point, "Just as God stopped working when the work was done, even so we cease from our own work/s when we enter into the rest that still remains, so don't continue to rely on your heritage and think that because God delivered you into Canaan and fulfilled His promise...that this is the end of the story.


God bless.

 

I certainly agree that the Law came as a box set. But I see the box as much bigger than you seem to envision. Nor do I see it as three boxes.

If you look more carefully at your verse that you quoted (and misquoted at the end) you should see that "every jot and tittle" stays totally in effect - every minor law included - until they are no longer in effect. And at that time they ALL cease to be in effect: circumcision, Sabbath-keeping, purity laws, etc. They existed together.
They were to be obeyed as a set.
They were suddenly deprecated as a set.

That is what happened at the point of fulfillment.

Whatever we might think as the point of this fulfillment, it cannot have been beyond the time of the destruction of the Temple.

I would like to see a passage or verse that shows the validity of the division of th Law into three parts. Or of the validity of keeping some of the Law and not other parts.

Fair enough. I will focus here on the Law in total. And maybe I will start a new thread concerning the Sabbath commandment.

 

Quite sure. While it is certainly addressed to believers, and would have been circulated among believers, he does, as you note, address the unbelievers among them.

For example...


Hebrews 10:26-29
King James Version (KJV)

26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?


The "willful sin" in view is committed by...those who reject God's will.

Not Christians. These are they that forsake the assembling of the brethren. They are adversaries (v.27).

And he is still centering on Hebrews, not believers/unbelievers in general.

Addressed to believers, addresses unbelievers. As well as though teetering between the Covenant of Law and the New Covenant. So we agree on this point.

There are also those that make it clear that there are those in danger of not entering His Rest. That is the entire purpose of the passage we have been looking at.

And would you like to suggest that those who have not entered into His Rest, who are told "Do not be unbelieving as those who rebelled in the wilderness did...

...are holy brethren who have saving faith?

Kind of makes warning them to have faith and be believing obsolete, doesn't it?

Right, so what is he convinced they are not doing?

What those who have not embraced Christ are doing.

And he is very specific, starting in Hebrews 5 and going through 6:12, he makes it clear those he speaks of are ignorant of the ABCs of the Old Testament (the First Principles of the Word of God), because they are dull of hearing, or in other words, lazy in regards to the Word of God;they are infantile in their understanding; they need to "go on unto Perfection, or, that which exceeds the knowledge of the basic knowledge given in the Old Testament (and I would suggest is euphemistic for "You need to be saved"). They are in danger of "crucifying Christ again, which I would suggest to you speaks of remaining in the Law and continuing in those sacrifices (which are a picture of Christ, thus they "crucify Christ again").

He uses the analogy of rain on the earth, meaning all receive the same provision, with differing results. That which is good (salvation), and burned.

Never said it was, lol.

It does refer to the works of the Law, though, which is what the Writer is trying to convince his brethren they must abandon, in favor of the New Covenant.

Now come on, Tom, you know the US wasn't even around then.

Just kidding...

You would have to explain what you mean by "what God has already planted in us." If you are saying that they are having difficulty in the flesh despite being born again believers, I would disagree. Those he speaks to are ignorant even of Messianic Prophecy, much less the expanded knowledge we received through the Apostles in the New Testament (and I believe it was Paul who wrote this, anonymous because he was hated by many Jews on both sides, and probably feared he would not be heeded if they knew who it was).

Again I have to disagree. The labor is striving against committing the same rebellion committed in the rebellion, which means not getting saved (not entering into His Rest), rather than Christians making a mess of their salvation.


God bless.

 

To introduce the brazen serpent is comparing refrigerators and apples.

In Hebrews 4:9 The writer used the Greek word sabbatismos for "rest" after establishing the sabbath day "rest" bond with the 7th day rest in Hebrews 4:4 which is the proof of my interpretation.

Hebrews 4:4 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.


HankD