The Righteousness of the Scribes and Pharisees

[asterisktom]

Not certain what you are attending, but the Romans passage states that the heathen are responsible because of the evidences written even on their hearts.

Are you concerned about "these Amazons, for instance, who hunt birds with poisoned arrows, and have scant ties with civilization, will be judged" and their eternity?

You seemed to be saying that the Decalogue (in its entirety, I assume) applies to the heathen. That assumes their needing to observe the Jewish Sabbath.

My point is that Sabbath observance is a non-moral law. It was purely didactic and prophetic. And for the Jews only.

Certainly the heathen cannot be faulted for non-observance of a law that has nothing to do with them. (I am not speaking of the other nine. Clearly these all have universal application beyond the Judeo-Christian world.)

 

[kyredneck]

Heathen hearts

These are Gentiles in the passage. Non-Jews. Why do you keep referring to Gentiles with THE LAW written in their hearts as heathen?

 

[Yeshua1]

These are Gentiles in the passage. Non-Jews. Why do you keep referring to Gentiles with THE LAW written in their hearts as heathen?

Paul stating that even Gentile who do not know God live better than Jews who claim they did, neither one were saved though!

 

[agedman]

You seemed to be saying that the Decalogue (in its entirety, I assume) applies to the heathen. That assumes their needing to observe the Jewish Sabbath.

My point is that Sabbath observance is a non-moral law. It was purely didactic and prophetic. And for the Jews only.

Certainly the heathen cannot be faulted for non-observance of a law that has nothing to do with them. (I am not speaking of the other nine. Clearly these all have universal application beyond the Judeo-Christian world.)

You again miss the point.

Each part of the decalogue can be found in all heathen cultures. The worship of god, the having a certain day for that worship, the rules concerning taking life, violating persons, ... are all part of the pattern of that culture and groupings views.

It is such, because it is written upon the hearts.

Such keep what they consider a sabbath. Some even known to bring sacrifices (animal, human, vegetable, mineral) to appease the god they worship as the one true god.

The decalogue was not just delivered to Moses but already a part of the human core of understanding.

The Decalogue and all Scripture laws were given so that a written standard could be shown, and it not be claimed that a standard of conduct was established by someone for personal gain. Murder was murder not because someone thought it a good standard, but because it was written down and further explained as given to Moses. However, murder was murder already a standard recognized as evil from the time Able succumbed to Cain's assault.

 

[agedman]

These are Gentiles in the passage. Non-Jews. Why do you keep referring to Gentiles with THE LAW written in their hearts as heathen?

Because, these Gentiles with the law written on their hearts, as ALL people have who were ever born, were not saved.

All unsaved are heathen hearted.

 

[HankD]

There are those who do take Melchizedek as the Christ.

As well they should

Hebrews 7:3 without father, without mother, without genealogy, having neither beginning of days nor end of life, but made like the Son of God, remains a priest continually.

An eternal being who else could it be?

"made like the Son of God" - that is - in the Genesis theophany account.

HankD

 

[HankD]

I had an Hasidim Jew tell me adamantly "Gentiles are not allowed to keep the Sabbath!".

HankD

 

[agedman]

As well they should

Hebrews 7:3 without father, without mother, without genealogy, having neither beginning of days nor end of life, but made like the Son of God, remains a priest continually.

An eternal being who else could it be?

"made like the Son of God" - that is - in the Genesis theophany account.

HankD

Yes, but notice that this eternal being was "made like the Son of God" is also part of the creation statement made by God, "Let us make man in our image" and so all who are made in the image of God are "made like (the Son of) God."

Because time and space are mere tools of the creator, there is no certain accountable way of assigning exactly who this Melchizedek really was, so I leave it all open to either it being the Christ, or one that represented the Christ at that time.

A professor at one time posited that this was perhaps a pre-incarnated form of David or some other. That was going farther then I thought the Scriptures would allow.

 

[agedman]

I had an Hasidim Jew tell me adamantly "Gentiles are not allowed to keep the Sabbath!".

HankD

Never met a 7th day adventist?

"Free from the law,
Oh happy condition,
Jesus hath bled,
And there is remission..."

 

[HankD]

Yes, but notice that this eternal being was "made like the Son of God" is also part of the creation statement made by God, "Let us make man in our image" and so all who are made in the image of God are "made like (the Son of) God."

Because time and space are mere tools of the creator, there is no certain accountable way of assigning exactly who this Melchizedek really was, so I leave it all open to either it being the Christ, or one that represented the Christ at that time.

A professor at one time posited that this was perhaps a pre-incarnated form of David or some other. That was going farther then I thought the Scriptures would allow.

- made like the Son of God - refers to the presentation account of Melchizedek (an eternal being) in Genesis.

But believe what you will.

HankD

 

[HankD]

Never met a 7th day adventist?
"

They are not allowed to keep the Sabbath.

 

[kyredneck]

the law written on their hearts, as ALL people have who were ever born

Scripture please.

 

[agedman]

Scripture please.

I presented the Scriptures, and you desire not to attend to them.

Argue with the writer of Romans (2).

 

[agedman]

- made like the Son of God - refers to the presentation account of Melchizedek (an eternal being) in Genesis.

But believe what you will.

HankD

Can Jesus be made "like" the Son of God when He was, is, and remained the Son of God?


Hank,

I really am not making a definitive judgment, but establishing that there is room for allowing God to impress upon the heart what render as He desires to make prominent.

 

[kyredneck]

I presented the Scriptures

Maybe in your imagination. No where have you presented scripture that supports your claim, "the law written on their hearts, as ALL people have who were ever born".

 

[agedman]

Maybe in your imagination. No where have you presented scripture that supports your claim, "the law written on their hearts, as ALL people have who were ever born".

Well, all that is available in Romans 1 and 2 that should allow you to come to terms with what I have presented as the truth.

But, because it seems that you would rather assume something else, I will remain as unimpressed with your thinking as much as you must be with mine.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

....."they say, and do not". Mt 23:3.

And "saved" is not to be found in the text.

But why is the man not saved? Who are you to say that he didn't do everything he said he did?

14 I say unto you, This man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be humbled; but he that humbleth himself shall be exalted. Lu 18

Ah! Now we're getting to the point! Why did the tax-collector go away justified? He had no works to offer (or if he did, he didn't offer them). He cried out to God and trusted in Him to justify him. He was saved by grace through faith.
'Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified, for by the law is the knowledge of sin' (Romans 3:20). The Pharisee looked at the law and thought he could be saved by it; the tax-collector looked at the law and saw himself condemned, but to him 'a righteousness apart from the law' [was] revealed' (v.21).

17 But if thou bearest the name of a Jew, and restest upon the law, and gloriest in God,
18 and knowest his will, and approvest the things that are excellent, being instructed out of the law,
19 and art confident that thou thyself art a guide of the blind, a light of them that are in darkness,
20 a corrector of the foolish, a teacher of babes, having in the law the form of knowledge and of the truth;
21 thou therefore that teachest another, teachest thou not thyself? thou that preachest a man should not steal, dost thou steal?
22 thou that sayest a man should not commit adultery, dost thou commit adultery? thou that abhorrest idols, dost thou rob temples?
23 thou who gloriest in the law, through thy transgression of the law dishonorest thou God? Ro 2
24 For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you, even as it is written. Ro 2

Indeed so, because our own righteousness is like filthy rags and to imagine that it can justify us is pride and blasphemy

This is a nasty attitude

Well you are the acknowledged king of the snide remark and casual abuse so I suppose you would know.
But I refer you to your remark on an earlier thread.

Your ego making you thin skinned like another on this thread?

towards this most basic truth, the essence, of both the law and the religion of Jesus Christ: agape, i.e., charity, thinking of others. Is this not complex enough for you? Too simple?

Nonetheless, if I can be justified by love, I don't need Jesus Christ.

Look, and understand! 'For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.
For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them' (Ephesians 2:8-10).

We are saved by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone (not faith in our great love or in our good works), and not for our glory, but to the glory of God alone.. At the point of salvation our good works count for nothing. 'In due time, Christ died for the ungodly' (Romans 5:6). Once we are saved, then of course we are to produce works of love as the Spirit works within us in progressive sanctification. A faith that does not lead to good works and to love is no faith at all (1 Corinthians 13:2; James 2:17).

But at our best and our highest, we are 'unprofitable servants' (Luke 17:10). Anyone who thinks that his good works or his love to others merits him heaven is utterly deluded. 'For we all stumble in many ways' and 'whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all' (James 3:2; 2:10).

'Jesus answered Him, "The first of all the commandments is, 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind and with all your strength.' This is the first commandment.
And the second, like it, is this: You shall love your neighbour as yourself.' There is no other commandment greater than these"' (Mark 12:29-31).

Those verses should bring all our pride down to the dust and make us give thanks that salvation is by grace through faith. Because none of us lives up to this. None of us can keep these two commandments, let alone all the other ones.

Who do you think it is that, by His grace alone, quickens and equips His children with the circumcised heart with the law written upon it and a desire to live by the golden rule?

Who else but God the holy Spirit? But He gives these things to us when we are justified by grace through faith.

 

[Darrell C]

Darrel - Melchizedek IS Christ.

Some take that view, but I do not. Melchisadec was a flesh and blood Priest in Abraham's day, nothing more.

I think it borderline heresy to equate Christ with a man.

You need to understand that prior to that body being created in Mary's womb...there was no Jesus Christ. He has, as the Savior of the World, a beginning in time.

It is the Son of God that is Eternal, and in fact the Creator. And even if Melchisadec was a Christophany, that is no more Jesus Christ than the body He took upon Himself when He visits Abraham in Genesis 18.

do an in depth study of Hebrews.

I might suggest the same.

IMO it is the theological narrative of the transition from the OC to the NC.

It is a Theological wonder, and in my view, the crown jewel of the New Testament. This book enlightens one to an understanding of the Old Testament, and bridges figure with reality, the giving of Promise and the bestowal of those Promises. It is a straightforward declaration of the necessity to embrace the New Covenant, and to understand the more complete knowledge of Christ.

Acts is the historic narrative of the same.

Agreed.

If you would like to start a thread and present why you make Melchisadec Christ, I'll be happy to participate. But I think it better not to depart further from the scope of the OP oif this thread.


God bless.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

These are Gentiles in the passage. Non-Jews. Why do you keep referring to Gentiles with THE LAW written in their hearts as heathen?

'Because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them............Who, knowing the righteous judgement of God that those who practise such things are worthy of death......... for when the Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things of the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, who show the work of the law written on their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them' (Romans 1:19, 32; 2:14-15).

 

[Darrell C]

Yes, as mel was a type of the One to come, but not Him, as the ONLY time Jesus appeared in the OT was as the Angel of the Lord.

Sorry, Jesus Christ did not appear as the Angel of the Lord.

That was the Son of God prior to His Incarnation.




God bless.