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TWO Raptures of Believers?
- Thread starter Mr. Davis
- Start date
"Without holiness no one will see the Lord." (Heb).
This is our experiential holiness. Not the holiness imputed from Christ for our salvation.
No unholy person can see the Lord in the Rapture. He must go through the trib then be transformed when he enters the Kingdom.
See the rest of my posts to Darrell C
Next in Sequence
@Copying your post to the clipboard and then to Word left some things out. (Only what you quote me saying. I am sorry. Let’s try this work-around. If it is unsatisfactory to you, I will post directly to the thread. (Normally, I copy and past my posts into the thread.) Note: I could not find your original post the second time I looked. That's why
I could not use your reply button and had to reply with the general reply button.
@
The first thing I would suggest to you is that we must understand that Christ teaches within the revelation available to men in that day, and His Ministry was often specific to the Millennial Kingdom.
Here is the verse Mr. Davis quoted:
“Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.” (From after the men in the field)
And, his second one:
“Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour ye think not the Son of man cometh.” (this verse repeats the sentiments of the first.)
It is not being watchful or ready that counts. It is being faithful. A believer is faithful in his life to the Lord. He is a friend of the Lord.
@
This verse [verses] speaks to Israel, both in the day He taught it, as well as in the Tribulation, when Christ's Return is relevant.
To apply this to the Rapture is not an error that can be supported by Scripture, as the context deals with His Return.
@The revelation made to them was from their Teachers until Christ appeared. Yes, His teaching about the Kingdom was to men of that day. Later, to the gentiles. I am a strong proponent of dual fulfillments. I believe mine are justified by Scripture. [Let me know if you disagree, providing Scripture to show your position.]
Applying this to the first partial rapture is no error. Men are taught today what Christ taught to Israel. All of the content in the Gospels was to Israel and to us today. Plus, we have the other books in the NT to give an even clearer picture.
@
As far as...
[Mr. Davis states]
It is not being watchful or ready that counts. It is being faithful. A believer is faithful in his life to the Lord. He is a friend of the Lord.
...goes, the Lord specifically states "watch," which implies a vigilance in the expectation of His Return. That does apply to the Church, because we are supposed to be able to recognize the signs of the times:
@Recognizing red skies sounds like something only the faithful would do.The unfaithful could care less. I thought you agreed with me at the beginning that watchfulness, or the lack of it, was not a test of faithfulness. However, there are signs in our generation about the regathering of Israel.
@
…so we do not have to be ignorant of what is going to happen. That is why Paul's teaching of the Rapture is supposed to comfort believers. The partial rapture theory is designed only to create doubt and fear.
@As I said before, the teaching of the partial raptures will be a comfort to both the faithful and unfaithful. Both will enjoy the Kingdom. And both will have new bodies.
Believers have their conscience and the Holy Spirit to know if they are walking in holiness (as a set disposition of the heart.) According to Gal 5, they can yield or walk in the Spirit. According to Peter, they do not have to fall. (2 Pe 1:10-11) "Without holiness no one shall see the Lord." (Heb 10)
@
The Lord defines what being taken means. It means destruction, just as it did in the Flood, and just as it did in Sodom.
@
The wicked are taken in Noah’s time and in Sodom and are destroyed. Clearly, these people had no shred of holiness. The Israelites later acted similarly. Paul said these are warnings for all of us. (See 1 Cor 10). A warning with no teeth in it is no warning. It is a warning to remain faithful!
Both the faithful and unholy-unfaithful are taken at the first partial rapture. One to heaven; the other, into the Tribulation. Where else can they go? The flood was a real crisis. So it is at both raptures. The first with, no doubt, severe persecution. The second, with the echoes of the trib.
@
Mr. Govett limits the scope of the use of the word.
@
You can check on the uses of the Greek word in Strong’s or a better lexicon. The taking can be friendly or unfriendly. In the case of the faithful it is friendly. In the case of the unholy-unfaithful or ungodly it is unfriendly. In the case of the taking of Christ by the ungodly (no companions of His) it was unfriendly.
@
First, not sure what kind of companions Mr. Govett considers to be in John 19:6.
@
I can only speak for myself. They were no companions of His.
@
Here we see another instance of judgment. This time...that of the Lord being taken.
@
The raptures are a form of judgment. The faithful Jesus was taken. The faithful are taken into the clouds. The unholy-unfaithful are taken into the trib.
@
Secondly, and more importantly to understand, is Scripture usually gives us the definition in the context. As you see above, the taking is specific to the judgments against man in the flood and at Sodom, hence you should be able to see that we cannot impose the Rapture into this text.
Lastly, I still await a response of my address of the "taking" in Matthew 24 and Luke 17.
Continued...
@ I think I said earlier that context is the entire Bible. There are dual fulfillments. The wicked, the unfaithful. The faithful, like Noah.
1 Thes 4 is the dual fulfillment of the man taken in the field. (Given everything I have previously stated.) The end of Matt 24 is also a dual fulfillment of the man taken in the field. Govett shows that the man taken in the field is raptured. He goes to the place where Christ has prepared a place for him. Govett points out the Scripture in John. Luke 17 is like Matt 24. No further comment is necessary.
I think it is time for a long break. I will resume with your posts (continuing in sequence) in a few days.
@Copying your post to the clipboard and then to Word left some things out. (Only what you quote me saying. I am sorry. Let’s try this work-around. If it is unsatisfactory to you, I will post directly to the thread. (Normally, I copy and past my posts into the thread.) Note: I could not find your original post the second time I looked. That's why
I could not use your reply button and had to reply with the general reply button.
@
The first thing I would suggest to you is that we must understand that Christ teaches within the revelation available to men in that day, and His Ministry was often specific to the Millennial Kingdom.
Here is the verse Mr. Davis quoted:
“Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.” (From after the men in the field)
And, his second one:
“Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour ye think not the Son of man cometh.” (this verse repeats the sentiments of the first.)
It is not being watchful or ready that counts. It is being faithful. A believer is faithful in his life to the Lord. He is a friend of the Lord.
@
This verse [verses] speaks to Israel, both in the day He taught it, as well as in the Tribulation, when Christ's Return is relevant.
To apply this to the Rapture is not an error that can be supported by Scripture, as the context deals with His Return.
@The revelation made to them was from their Teachers until Christ appeared. Yes, His teaching about the Kingdom was to men of that day. Later, to the gentiles. I am a strong proponent of dual fulfillments. I believe mine are justified by Scripture. [Let me know if you disagree, providing Scripture to show your position.]
Applying this to the first partial rapture is no error. Men are taught today what Christ taught to Israel. All of the content in the Gospels was to Israel and to us today. Plus, we have the other books in the NT to give an even clearer picture.
@
As far as...
[Mr. Davis states]
It is not being watchful or ready that counts. It is being faithful. A believer is faithful in his life to the Lord. He is a friend of the Lord.
...goes, the Lord specifically states "watch," which implies a vigilance in the expectation of His Return. That does apply to the Church, because we are supposed to be able to recognize the signs of the times:
@Recognizing red skies sounds like something only the faithful would do.The unfaithful could care less. I thought you agreed with me at the beginning that watchfulness, or the lack of it, was not a test of faithfulness. However, there are signs in our generation about the regathering of Israel.
@
…so we do not have to be ignorant of what is going to happen. That is why Paul's teaching of the Rapture is supposed to comfort believers. The partial rapture theory is designed only to create doubt and fear.
@As I said before, the teaching of the partial raptures will be a comfort to both the faithful and unfaithful. Both will enjoy the Kingdom. And both will have new bodies.
Believers have their conscience and the Holy Spirit to know if they are walking in holiness (as a set disposition of the heart.) According to Gal 5, they can yield or walk in the Spirit. According to Peter, they do not have to fall. (2 Pe 1:10-11) "Without holiness no one shall see the Lord." (Heb 10)
@
The Lord defines what being taken means. It means destruction, just as it did in the Flood, and just as it did in Sodom.
@
The wicked are taken in Noah’s time and in Sodom and are destroyed. Clearly, these people had no shred of holiness. The Israelites later acted similarly. Paul said these are warnings for all of us. (See 1 Cor 10). A warning with no teeth in it is no warning. It is a warning to remain faithful!
Both the faithful and unholy-unfaithful are taken at the first partial rapture. One to heaven; the other, into the Tribulation. Where else can they go? The flood was a real crisis. So it is at both raptures. The first with, no doubt, severe persecution. The second, with the echoes of the trib.
@
Mr. Govett limits the scope of the use of the word.
@
You can check on the uses of the Greek word in Strong’s or a better lexicon. The taking can be friendly or unfriendly. In the case of the faithful it is friendly. In the case of the unholy-unfaithful or ungodly it is unfriendly. In the case of the taking of Christ by the ungodly (no companions of His) it was unfriendly.
@
First, not sure what kind of companions Mr. Govett considers to be in John 19:6.
@
I can only speak for myself. They were no companions of His.
@
Here we see another instance of judgment. This time...that of the Lord being taken.
@
The raptures are a form of judgment. The faithful Jesus was taken. The faithful are taken into the clouds. The unholy-unfaithful are taken into the trib.
@
Secondly, and more importantly to understand, is Scripture usually gives us the definition in the context. As you see above, the taking is specific to the judgments against man in the flood and at Sodom, hence you should be able to see that we cannot impose the Rapture into this text.
Lastly, I still await a response of my address of the "taking" in Matthew 24 and Luke 17.
Continued...
@ I think I said earlier that context is the entire Bible. There are dual fulfillments. The wicked, the unfaithful. The faithful, like Noah.
1 Thes 4 is the dual fulfillment of the man taken in the field. (Given everything I have previously stated.) The end of Matt 24 is also a dual fulfillment of the man taken in the field. Govett shows that the man taken in the field is raptured. He goes to the place where Christ has prepared a place for him. Govett points out the Scripture in John. Luke 17 is like Matt 24. No further comment is necessary.
I think it is time for a long break. I will resume with your posts (continuing in sequence) in a few days.
Last edited:
No. And it is actually 75 days added to the Forty Two months which begins with the Abomination of Desolation:
Daniel 12:6-12
King James Version (KJV)
6 And one said to the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, How long shall it be to the end of these wonders?
7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.
8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?
9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.
10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.
11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.
"Time, times, and half a time" refers to three and a half years, which for Jews would have been based on a 360 day year, for a total of 1260 days.
Note in verse 11 that from the time the daily sacrifice is taken away (which means that Levitical service will be taking place in the Temple of the Tribulation) and the Abomination of Desolation set up, there will be 1290 days, which possibly marks an event 30 days after the Christ returns (Satan likely bound either when Christ returns, or possibly at this time, the former giving Satan 75 days at the end of the Millennial Kingdom, the latter giving him 45 days).
Note v.12 speaks of those who come to the 1335 days, which is a total of 75 days after the 1260 days, which again begins when Antichrist comes into power, as noted here:
Revelation 13
King James Version (KJV)
1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.
2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.
3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.
4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
Apparently the Two Witnesses minister in the first half (Forty Two Months, 3 1/2 years) of the Tribulation, and cannot be harmed during that period:
Revelation 11
King James Version (KJV)
11 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.
2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.
3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
That this is a future event is seen in that Christ includes the Abomination of Desolation in the events that transpire before His Return:
Matthew 24:15-16
King James Version (KJV)
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
Antichrist strengthens the Covenant of Law, supposedly for 7 years (the Final Week of the Seventy Weeks), which allows Temple Service to take place, but, in the middle of the Seventieth Week...stops Temple Service...
Daniel 9:24-27
King James Version (KJV)
24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
He causes sacrifice and oblation to cease because at that time he sets himself in the Tribulation Temple declaring Himself to be God:
2 Thessalonians 2
King James Version (KJV)
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
The only Rapture in the Tribulation, as shown before, is that of the Two Witnesses. We know that all unbelievers are destroyed physically when Christ returns, and that physically living believers (born again during the Tribulation) enter into that physical Kingdom promised by God. The believers (born again during the Tribulation) who died during the Tribulation are resurrected in glorified bodies (implied by the duration of their reign with Christ, though debatable because life-spans will revert to being long like they were initially in Creation) and no physically living believers are raised or glorified at this time:
Revelation 20
King James Version (KJV)
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
All of these events are recorded as separate and distinct from the Rapture, which, as mentioned numerous times, is the resurrection and glorification of the Church as a whole. Both dead and alive Saints are raised together in the same event, and if we impose that event within, or at the end of the Tribulation we then compromise what we are told of events in most of the Prophecy we have that relates to the eschatological timeline. Those who do so are then forced to create radical theories in an attempt to harmonize Prophecy, or, even worse, they must determine that much of what is said cannot be taken literally, and that much of Prophecy should be seen in an historical or idealistic perspective.
God bless.
No. And it is actually 75 days added to the Forty Two months which begins with the Abomination of Desolation:
Daniel 12:6-12
King James Version (KJV)
6 And one said to the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, How long shall it be to the end of these wonders?
7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.
8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?
9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.
10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.
11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.
"Time, times, and half a time" refers to three and a half years, which for Jews would have been based on a 360 day year, for a total of 1260 days.
Note in verse 11 that from the time the daily sacrifice is taken away (which means that Levitical service will be taking place in the Temple of the Tribulation) and the Abomination of Desolation set up, there will be 1290 days, which possibly marks an event 30 days after the Christ returns (Satan likely bound either when Christ returns, or possibly at this time, the former giving Satan 75 days at the end of the Millennial Kingdom, the latter giving him 45 days).
Note v.12 speaks of those who come to the 1335 days, which is a total of 75 days after the 1260 days, which again begins when Antichrist comes into power, as noted here:
Revelation 13
King James Version (KJV)
1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.
2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.
3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.
4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
Apparently the Two Witnesses minister in the first half (Forty Two Months, 3 1/2 years) of the Tribulation, and cannot be harmed during that period:
Revelation 11
King James Version (KJV)
11 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.
2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.
3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
That this is a future event is seen in that Christ includes the Abomination of Desolation in the events that transpire before His Return:
Matthew 24:15-16
King James Version (KJV)
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
Antichrist strengthens the Covenant of Law, supposedly for 7 years (the Final Week of the Seventy Weeks), which allows Temple Service to take place, but, in the middle of the Seventieth Week...stops Temple Service...
Daniel 9:24-27
King James Version (KJV)
24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
He causes sacrifice and oblation to cease because at that time he sets himself in the Tribulation Temple declaring Himself to be God:
2 Thessalonians 2
King James Version (KJV)
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
The only Rapture in the Tribulation, as shown before, is that of the Two Witnesses. We know that all unbelievers are destroyed physically when Christ returns, and that physically living believers (born again during the Tribulation) enter into that physical Kingdom promised by God. The believers (born again during the Tribulation) who died during the Tribulation are resurrected in glorified bodies (implied by the duration of their reign with Christ, though debatable because life-spans will revert to being long like they were initially in Creation) and no physically living believers are raised or glorified at this time:
Revelation 20
King James Version (KJV)
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
All of these events are recorded as separate and distinct from the Rapture, which, as mentioned numerous times, is the resurrection and glorification of the Church as a whole. Both dead and alive Saints are raised together in the same event, and if we impose that event within, or at the end of the Tribulation we then compromise what we are told of events in most of the Prophecy we have that relates to the eschatological timeline. Those who do so are then forced to create radical theories in an attempt to harmonize Prophecy, or, even worse, they must determine that much of what is said cannot be taken literally, and that much of Prophecy should be seen in an historical or idealistic perspective.
God bless.
Great Job Darrell C!
I now agree with you fully and I have copied your post to my Computer.
I realize my errors. God loves the faithful and unfaithful. Both have the Holy Spirit within. There is no connection to the men in the field to the Rapture. The one that is left dies at the Second Coming. The second trump is during the Judgment of the Seven Trumpets.
There is no such thing as a partial Rapture. The late Dr. Walvoord stated this at the beginning of my thesis. I have books by him. I greatly respect him. Darrell C and Yeshua1 argued very persuasively against me.
All I can say, is that from the depths of my heart, I recant this teaching and will destroy all posts of it on my computer. I repent of my grievous error. I recommend that the thread be closed and destroyed. I am extremely glad now that others did not participate. For those who viewed it, I can only beg the Lord’s forgiveness for my arrogance and the confusion it caused them.
Darrell C warned me that the Board does not accept posts on a partial Rapture. And it is thoroughly denied. I can only say that I am grateful for the exception to air my views and receive appropriate rebuke from those that participated.
In the future, I will follow all Board rules.
Mr. Davis
The following greatly reassures me that the Pre-Tribulational Rapture is certain. Also, that it did not originate with Darby, but much earlier in Church history. It is a doctrine to ardently defend.
What is the rapture and when will it occur?
Some have tried to say that a pre-tribulation rapture is a relatively new teaching of the Church, and therefore should be dismissed. However, such is not the case. A sermon that has survived from Ephraem the Syrian (306-373 AD), fully describes a pre-tribulation rapture: "All the saints and elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins."
I now agree with you fully and I have copied your post to my Computer.
I realize my errors. God loves the faithful and unfaithful. Both have the Holy Spirit within. There is no connection to the men in the field to the Rapture. The one that is left dies at the Second Coming. The second trump is during the Judgment of the Seven Trumpets.
There is no such thing as a partial Rapture. The late Dr. Walvoord stated this at the beginning of my thesis. I have books by him. I greatly respect him. Darrell C and Yeshua1 argued very persuasively against me.
All I can say, is that from the depths of my heart, I recant this teaching and will destroy all posts of it on my computer. I repent of my grievous error. I recommend that the thread be closed and destroyed. I am extremely glad now that others did not participate. For those who viewed it, I can only beg the Lord’s forgiveness for my arrogance and the confusion it caused them.
Darrell C warned me that the Board does not accept posts on a partial Rapture. And it is thoroughly denied. I can only say that I am grateful for the exception to air my views and receive appropriate rebuke from those that participated.
In the future, I will follow all Board rules.
Mr. Davis
The following greatly reassures me that the Pre-Tribulational Rapture is certain. Also, that it did not originate with Darby, but much earlier in Church history. It is a doctrine to ardently defend.
What is the rapture and when will it occur?
Some have tried to say that a pre-tribulation rapture is a relatively new teaching of the Church, and therefore should be dismissed. However, such is not the case. A sermon that has survived from Ephraem the Syrian (306-373 AD), fully describes a pre-tribulation rapture: "All the saints and elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins."
It takes a brave man to state such a thing publicly. Well done for that!
Whwen God the father looks at us though, its through the Croiss of Christ, and if He was rejecting any for rapture, would be rejecting Christ Himself!
The majority of those who lived and in thru the reign of Christ though decide to follow satan in the end, correct?No. And it is actually 75 days added to the Forty Two months which begins with the Abomination of Desolation:
Daniel 12:6-12
King James Version (KJV)
6 And one said to the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, How long shall it be to the end of these wonders?
7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.
8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?
9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.
10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.
11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.
"Time, times, and half a time" refers to three and a half years, which for Jews would have been based on a 360 day year, for a total of 1260 days.
Note in verse 11 that from the time the daily sacrifice is taken away (which means that Levitical service will be taking place in the Temple of the Tribulation) and the Abomination of Desolation set up, there will be 1290 days, which possibly marks an event 30 days after the Christ returns (Satan likely bound either when Christ returns, or possibly at this time, the former giving Satan 75 days at the end of the Millennial Kingdom, the latter giving him 45 days).
Note v.12 speaks of those who come to the 1335 days, which is a total of 75 days after the 1260 days, which again begins when Antichrist comes into power, as noted here:
Revelation 13
King James Version (KJV)
1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.
2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.
3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.
4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
Apparently the Two Witnesses minister in the first half (Forty Two Months, 3 1/2 years) of the Tribulation, and cannot be harmed during that period:
Revelation 11
King James Version (KJV)
11 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.
2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.
3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
That this is a future event is seen in that Christ includes the Abomination of Desolation in the events that transpire before His Return:
Matthew 24:15-16
King James Version (KJV)
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
Antichrist strengthens the Covenant of Law, supposedly for 7 years (the Final Week of the Seventy Weeks), which allows Temple Service to take place, but, in the middle of the Seventieth Week...stops Temple Service...
Daniel 9:24-27
King James Version (KJV)
24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
He causes sacrifice and oblation to cease because at that time he sets himself in the Tribulation Temple declaring Himself to be God:
2 Thessalonians 2
King James Version (KJV)
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
The only Rapture in the Tribulation, as shown before, is that of the Two Witnesses. We know that all unbelievers are destroyed physically when Christ returns, and that physically living believers (born again during the Tribulation) enter into that physical Kingdom promised by God. The believers (born again during the Tribulation) who died during the Tribulation are resurrected in glorified bodies (implied by the duration of their reign with Christ, though debatable because life-spans will revert to being long like they were initially in Creation) and no physically living believers are raised or glorified at this time:
Revelation 20
King James Version (KJV)
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
All of these events are recorded as separate and distinct from the Rapture, which, as mentioned numerous times, is the resurrection and glorification of the Church as a whole. Both dead and alive Saints are raised together in the same event, and if we impose that event within, or at the end of the Tribulation we then compromise what we are told of events in most of the Prophecy we have that relates to the eschatological timeline. Those who do so are then forced to create radical theories in an attempt to harmonize Prophecy, or, even worse, they must determine that much of what is said cannot be taken literally, and that much of Prophecy should be seen in an historical or idealistic perspective.
God bless.
We simply do not know what the population will be. Look at how it has exploded in the last hundred years. Whether it is a majority or not we cannot be certain, and can only look at the fact that Christ taught a many/few ratio between unbelievers and believers. But, the Millennial Kingdom will be an Age unlike any other, unless we consider Adam's. We do know its going to be a whole heckuva lot of 'em, lol:
Revelation 20:7-8
King James Version (KJV)
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
Just as a side note I believe that certain Prophecy which is relevant and primarily specific to the Return of Christ will be applicable to the end of that Age as well. Here is an example:
Matthew 25:31-33
King James Version (KJV)
31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
I see this as a prophecy that will have multiple application (not multiple meanings), relevant to both the Return as well as the end of the Millennial Age.
God bless.
Most appreciated, Calypsis 4.
Before this, had you ever heard of twin Raptures? Or, a 'partial' Rapture?
What other forums do you post to?
And, God bless you, Calypsis4!
Calypsis4
Member
Thanks, friend.
I have heard of a 'partial rapture' before but I really don't see a scriptural basis for it. I believe that the Lord is going to awaken His people spiritually before He comes for His bride so that she will at last be without spot, or wrinkle or any such thing at the time of His coming.
Ephesians 5:27
That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
Those professing believers who are not cleansed and not prepared to meet him are the tares; pretenders and hypocrites who were never among us in the first place.
I post here on BB sporadically and usually only to the posters with a good attitude. The mockers, troublemakers and insulters I either avoid or put them in the ignore can.
God bless you and have a great day.
Thanks for the informative and well written reply.
I paraphrase and shorten what you said:
"The Lord is going to awaken His people spiritually, with no defects, at the Rapture."
I have to put it this way. After all my misunderstandings in this thread about what makes one worthy
to go in the Rapture, a clear and definite definition of what does must be stated.
I must add that I thought the unholy-unfaithful deserved the Tribulation as a form of divine chastisement.
But chastisement is corrective in its effect. If they had changed, would they be Raptured out of the Tribulation? Or, have gone through it anyway? (My original thesis held that once in the Tribulation they had to stay in it through to the end. If they were alternately faithful and unfaithful in the Tribulation what then?)
Men gifted with intellect and spiritual curiosity have been the founders of numerous enslaving cults.
God the Holy Spirit be praised and glorified! Your words are pure.
Have you ever debated supporting the side of Calvinism before?
What is your understanding of the difference between monergism and synergism?
There is now there NO condemnation for all of those now in Christ Jesus!
Its either all sins have been already paid for, and real eternal life, or not!
Calypsis4
Member
O.K., thanks. Take comfort in this brother: whatever lack in understanding we have about who will and won't make it at the rapture is not a problem with the Lord. Those who are truly born again in Christ will be born again in Christ when the rapture comes and God's Holy Spirit will, (without fail) cleanse the hearts and minds of every single true believer on earth prior to that great rapture that will come. He sees the true from the false and the sheep from the goats. Our duty as His servants is, in the meantime is to make our lives right by putting away sinful things: lust, lies, theft, adultery, drunkeness, dishonest, bearing false witness, covetousness, envy, etc.
Concerning Calvinism. I agree with them on some things but disagree on others.
I am not familiar with the terms 'monergiism' and 'synergism'. Perhaps you can define them for me and I could potentially answer you later. God bless you, friend.
The M crowd would see salvation in terms of TULIP, and the S crowd would agree on most of that , but balk at free will and resisting Grace of God !
See "Do Calvinists Distort the Gospel?" on the home page of the Board.
I believe I wrote an excellent post!
It's one of the more recent ones.
To save time and avoid a lot of ignorant chatter,
I can get the post # and pm it to you.
Brother Davis
Calypsis4
Member
I think that DarrellC & a few others have done a good job in discussing these issues so I'll turn this over to them for I have already been here longer than I intended so I will get back to work on things the Lord would have me spend most of my time on.
Perhaps we can talk at a later time. Best wishes.
I was in the hospital in feb. couldn't reply to anything.
hope you just read this. OFCOURSE every believer must spend his time doing what he feels the Lord has called him to do.
I may very well be WRONG! The Rapture may not be conditioned on personal holiness. He knows our hearts. And, the H.S.will convict a true believer of sin. And he WILL Repent! My CAVEAT only applies to people who claim to be God's children (and MANY of them sit next to us in Church) and DON'T live His LIFE! No LIFE, no heaven. But, God may turn their hearts to Him finally, and, in His Great Purpose, lead them to Glory!
Does this make any sense to anyone?