How are we made righteous?

Not true.

You made a claim in #31 stating, "Agedman apparently also claims not all of our works of righteousness are as filthy rags to God."

I desired proof that your claim was actually viably accurate in post # 33 asking, "Can you show at what point I even alluded to such a statement?"

And further in that same post asking, "But, can you actually give and example of any view supported by a member of the BB to such thinking?"

It is your own claim that is in question.

If you think that these two questions are off topic, then you have one of two choices (imo):

1) you can admit that you posted in excess and outside of any supporting facts. Or,
2) you can prove your post is in fact accurate by documentation requested. ​

 

Van, you would do better if you established the difference between an Old Testament Saint being declared righteous (based on what they did) and being declared righteous based on what Christ did, which whether you want to acknowledge it or not holds an identical meaning because believers are not of themselves righteous, only Christ is, and it is His righteousness imputed to the behalf of the believer.

You've already had one member ask you what you meant by this:

You don't really most people are going to go chase the references you gave...

...do you?

Men being made perfect has to be explained. Still doesn't make believers righteous of their own selves, and it is still Christ's righteousness we draw on, but, you could probably better explain yourself if you explain that aspect of your basis.


God bless.

 

Van,

I quoted You.

 

And you are terribly wrong, brother. We are righteous because we are made perfect in regards to remission of sins. We are not "the righteous made perfect."

Think about it, Van, did not the Old Testament Saints die, go to Sheol/Hades...and await being made perfect? What made them perfect?

The Sacrifice of Christ.

And it is no different from those being saved in this Age.


Hebrews 10:1-4
King James Version (KJV)

1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.

2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.

3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.

4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.


Abraham was a member of that group, and relevant to the discussion. He died, having only animal sacrifice to bring atonement, hence...he died with his sin deb

And the righteousness ascribed to him by Paul and James...was according to the flesh. It was temporal, not eternal. He was not, as you well know, eternally redeemed.

Here is how he was redeemed:


Hebrews 10:10-14
King James Version (KJV)

10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:

12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.

14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.


The Old Testament Saints were made perfect, which again, is being made complete in regards to remission of sins, retroactively. That is why the Writer distinguishes between those who of the Church (those eternally redeemed, immersed into eternal union with God, and born again in this Age) and those who died prior to the Cross and the establishment of the New Covenant:


Hebrews 12:20-24
King James Version (KJV)

20 (For they could not endure that which was commanded, And if so much as a beast touch the mountain, it shall be stoned, or thrust through with a dart:

21 And so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, I exceedingly fear and quake

22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.


His point throughout the Book is "You need to embrace Christ and the New Covenant, and leave the foundational elements found in the Covenant of Law. Here he says "You have not come to the Covenant of Law, but to the New Covenant and the elements therein."

We also see the Writer include all sacrifice for sin going back to the sacrifices offered by Abel, and contrasts that with the better Sacrifice of Christ.

So I must disagree that we are "the righteous made perfect," for we are not, we are sinner made perfect in regards to remission of sins, and based on that alone are we declared righteous before God. And as I have already said, we can certainly view this as being made righteous through Christ, but it is not a practical righteousness of our own, but is our standing before God based on Christ's righteousness.


Continued...

 

Thanks, but I would have done it with or without your permission.

No, its just a denial of what I see to be error. For my Theology you would have to read the posts.

But Van, that is true, even in the concept you are trying so hard to teach. In the sense of it being a given, that is. Those who do not believe are not righteous, those who do are, but...

...not because they believe.

Its just my view that even among unbelievers there are those who believe, yet reject the Gospel, Christ, and His Sacrifice for sin. During the Comforter's convicting Ministry there is no question in my mind they believe, but, they reject the Gospel as they are being enlightened to it's truth.

Its just what is taught in Scripture:


John 5:24
King James Version (KJV)

24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.


It would only be false theology if one ascribed believing as the means of salvation, rather than the result of God's saving grace.


Continued...

 

The problem I see with the reference is that the righteousness credited to Abraham...is not the righteousness of Christ, but Abraham's.

And the text is pretty specific:


Genesis 15
King James Version (KJV)

3 And Abram said, Behold, to me thou hast given no seed: and, lo, one born in my house is mine heir.

4 And, behold, the word of the Lord came unto him, saying, This shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir.

5 And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be.

6 And he believed in the Lord; and he counted it to him for righteousness.



Genesis 15:6
New American Standard Bible (NASB)

6 Then he believed in the Lord; and He reckoned it to him as righteousness.


(see link)

Just a matter of Abraham being, from a temporal perspective, according to the flesh as Paul writes...righteous within his ability.

Not the imputed righteousness of God:



Romans 3:21-26
King James Version (KJV)

21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.


We see it is the righteousness of God manifested at this time, and that righteousness is through faith in Christ.

It is because we believe, but it is Christ's righteousness that is declared, not that of the believer.

Abraham was not eternally redeemed because he believed God would give him an heir, he was eternally redeemed when Christ died on the Cross in his place, and that death was credited to Abraham as his own. Without the shedding of blood (death) there is no remission, and we know that the shedding of blood relative to Abraham, that of animals, did not take away (the penalty for) sins.


Continued...

 

Actually, stick to the original languages.

The Translation is still, after all, a translation, and bound to hold the theological biases of the translators.

I don't think anyone would do that. Well some. I am debating a guy who denies Christ died in the stead of the sinner, and did not go to the Cross of His Own accord.

I think if anything, if you are trying to distinguish between the righteousness Old Testament Saints are said to have and the righteousness of Christ...I'm behind you, brother, all the way. Most do not understand the distinctions critical to a proper understanding of salvation in Christ, and the more people talking about it the better.

Discussion is a two way street, so you need to address the points raised to you, that's how it works. Just responding with derisive statements isn't going to help you or anyone else.


God bless.

 

As an HVAC man, you understand the blended refrigerants do not remain proportional when a leak occurs.

Similar it seems, that when one attempts to label all uses of a word such as “righteousness” as a single compound rather then a blended one, there can be some problems.

Decades ago, the use of equal parts R12 and R22 could be used to substitue for R500 if an emergency obliged. However, the blended was deficient in one element, but would work. The sharing of the molecular structure was sufficient.

The word “righteous” as applied to the above example is as a blend. The work(s) of God believed by a person can be credited as righteous and hence the use of a phrase such as “a righteous man” in the OT

However, the “righteousness” of God is declared upon adoption which is that statement of account placement. It is not a transfer of funds such as one going to the bank and withdrawing funds and traveling to another bank and depositing them, but a matter of accounting practice in which a ledger is kept.

The adopted is not erased from the debit and transferred to the credit, but the credit side has been adjusted by that which Christ has accomplished.

This is why one can sing, “dressed in His righteousness alone, faultless to stand before the throne.”

 

Van posts, “the naysayers continue to post absurdity followed by nonsense.”

Such exaggeration and overstatement does nothing to further discussion.

When Van posts, “Pay no attention to false theology,” he is posting a true statement.

But typically truth is often a covering for hidden error.

It is not error to state: the forgiveness of all sin was by the shed blood of Christ. He was that propitiation for not only the sin of a few, but for the sin of all who ever lived, are living, and will live.

It is not error to state: Without faith (belief) it is impossible to please God, and that faith is not innate or some human generated gasping, but COMES by the Word of God and work of the Holy Spirit.

It is not error to state: The just (righteous) live by faith (belief), and such righteousness is revealed from the opening to the ending. It did not start at the crucifixion but is based upon the promise of God, the faithfulness of Him who first loved us.

It is not error to state: The faith (belief) that is of God produces certain righteous work that demonstrates to all that which one believes. That there is a righteousness apart from belief (faith) that aspires to mimic and is often proclaimed as exceptionally good and may be following that prescribed law of God, but such righteousness is not that which is believer righteousness.

 

1/God chose us to be saved in Christ before foundation of the world/Though saved by Grace, still sinful persons
2/sounds more like when the Roman church says that we are now infused with Grace and thus are indeed righteousness of ourselves!
3/God sees us when saved as being clothed in the alien/foreign to our own righteousness of Christ, but he still al;so knows that we are sinners still!

 

Have you reached the state then of sinless perfection, and God can see you as being right in yourself than?

 

Never mind.

 

This presentation is in error.

One does not wait on the "If and when God credits" to be righteous as if that is done at a later date then when one cries out in belief.

One is ALREADY condemned as an unbeliever or ALREADY credited as righteous as a believer. There is no IF and WHEN associated in the matter. The quoted in Van's post above demonstrates the immediacy of benefit and refutes that some conditional response by God is time oriented.

God does NOT respond to the belief, but is the very author and finisher of belief (faith). Therefore, God ALREADY has attached righteousness to belief, ALREADY has assigned "no condemnation" to belief, has ALREADY Justified (made righteous) in belief, and any statement that spouts some human effort is involved such as "a person's faith" that is then followed by righteousness is not following the principles of Scriptures.

Could it be that Van's statement from above "Folks, the naysayers continue to post absurdity followed by nonsense." is actually a self acknowledgement of his own condition and not that of others?

Is Van actually self promoting, " Obfuscation without truth" in his presentation? (a quote from Van in an above post)